Men's Hidden Fear of Women: A Conversation with Dr. Avrum Weiss

00:03.10
Bruce Anthony
So like I said in the intro I have Dr albram Weiss Psychotherapist an author and speaker welcome to the show.

00:10.10
Dr. Avrum Weiss
Thank you brisk Good to meet you good talk with it.

00:17.62
Bruce Anthony
It's good to meet you and talk to you as well and and ladies and gentlemen I'm gonna let you know that we're we're starting off on a on a slow foot because I messed up the time we know that I don't like being tardy but I was tardy and Dr Weiss is has been. Kind enough to do this interview and I'm messing up his schedule. So I want to apologize about that all right? So Dr Weiss can you tell me a little bit about your background and what inspired you to become a psycho psychologist. Let let me let me let me rephrase I'm a cut that.

00:35.92
Dr. Avrum Weiss
So okay.

00:47.34
Dr. Avrum Weiss
Ah, yeah.

00:51.96
Bruce Anthony
So Dr Weiss can you tell me a little bit about your background and what inspired you to become a psychologist.

00:54.94
Dr. Avrum Weiss
I Have always been interested in people and like when I was a teenager I would do this strange thing I would walk by people on the sidewalk and then when they passed me I found I would kind of copy the way they were walking to see what it felt like. So I've just always been interested in people and then I sort of found out that was a job and so I naturally gravitated towards it.

01:13.80
Bruce Anthony
Ah, here.

01:21.00
Bruce Anthony
So you have a natural curiosity to understand what people are experiencing in their own life. Okay, okay so how did that how did that spark lead you into your field today.

01:27.10
Dr. Avrum Weiss
Yeah, yeah, I've always been interested.

01:36.76
Dr. Avrum Weiss
Well for example, the last book I wrote is about men and men's fears of women and that came about because I was working with a lot of men and I was listening to them talk and they talked all the time about the things they didn't like about their partners.

01:54.48
Bruce Anthony
Head.

01:56.33
Dr. Avrum Weiss
And it would be a litany of complaints about and most of them were things that things their wives or girlfriends were unhappy with them about she wants me to do this. She doesn't like this this this and so I would sort of naively ask. Because therapists ask questions like this I would say things like well have you talked to her about that because that's the kind of question therapists asked and they would look at me like I just asked the stupidest question in the world like of course not like it's obvious I haven't talked to her about and I'd say why? not.

02:17.51
Bruce Anthony
E.

02:30.59
Bruce Anthony
It is.

02:32.65
Dr. Avrum Weiss
They'd say because it would make things much worse if I talked to her about it and gradually it became clear to me that they didn't talk to her about it because they were afraid to talk to her about it and so I started checking that out with them. But but.

02:45.20
Bruce Anthony
Here.

02:50.24
Dr. Avrum Weiss
Understand I'm sure you understand that you don't casually suggest to a man that he's afraid of a woman at least not within swinging distance right? So I started very carefully suggesting to guys.

02:59.50
Bruce Anthony
Right? This is correct.

03:08.69
Dr. Avrum Weiss
That it kind of sounds like you're afraid to talk to her and I got the same response every damn time. So the first part of the response was like the you know the bow up kind of like what you talking about. But then that lasted.

03:16.82
Bruce Anthony
Here here.

03:23.30
Bruce Anthony
Right? are.

03:27.45
Dr. Avrum Weiss
Less than 30 seconds and that very quickly was followed by kind of like a look of realization would come over their face and they would look at me and they'd go huh you know that would explain a lot. And then we would start going back through everything that we'd been talking about with that idea and all the things that had not made any sense up till then we'd go back through them all with the idea of him being afraid of her and they all started making a lot more sense. So it's like it's like we found the key and everything started making a lot more sense. Okay.

04:06.92
Bruce Anthony
We can can get in. We're gonna get into this a little bit later but I'm sure there's a connection that goes from not just their partner but maybe family members Sisters Aunts Mothers I know personally in my own life I can be brutally honest to.

04:17.37
Dr. Avrum Weiss
Um, oh yeah, yes.

04:26.80
Dr. Avrum Weiss
Except yeah, well not just yeah.

04:26.86
Bruce Anthony
Everybody except for the women in my life. Yes, except for the women in my life because I don't want to hurt their feelings I My my well.. Ah yeah, Okay, so um, for my mother. Yes for my sister. Um I'm. Kind of scared her what her response will be because she's smarter than I am and for the females I'm Dating. It is genuinely just for me Personally, It's genuinely just I don't want to hurt their feelings So I'll keep certain things.

04:47.47
Dr. Avrum Weiss
You're right.

04:53.60
Dr. Avrum Weiss
Yes, because okay now if you're going to put yourself out there like that now we got to talk about okay because you don't want to hurt their feelings because what happens if you hurt their feelings.

05:01.81
Bruce Anthony
Now Let's do it. Let's do it.

05:09.97
Bruce Anthony
They're said.

05:10.37
Dr. Avrum Weiss
Yeah, okay, if you hurt their feelings Then how will they feel towards you and then they and right.

05:15.70
Bruce Anthony
Ah I guess they'll be upset at me I mean they'll just start crying I can't do with the crying and and and yeah.

05:28.22
Dr. Avrum Weiss
Right? right? And then they will not like you and disapprove of you and yeah, right, right? right? right? That's right, That's exactly right? Thank you Thank you for making my point from it exactly.

05:31.74
Bruce Anthony
Ah, okay so I I get where you're going with that the disapproval. Um I guess I never thought of it and I guess this is the point that you're making is that is that men yes is that men go through this and and they don't realize and what you're saying is.

05:47.33
Dr. Avrum Weiss
Yes.

05:50.91
Bruce Anthony
And we're we've jumped the gun this was stuff that I wanted to hit in the second segment but we're here now. So what you're saying is is that a lot of men are afraid of women but maybe not in the aspect of which they think like I could be afraid of another guy because of a physical confrontation right? There's a physicality to it.

06:06.57
Dr. Avrum Weiss
Yes, yes, yeah, yes, exactly yes, right? because women are not bigger than you you know where he's gonna punch in him out.

06:10.83
Bruce Anthony
But this is more of an emotional fear.

06:18.55
Bruce Anthony
Look I don't know if you watch him in may but there's a lot of women out here matter of fact, 2 of my 2 recent women that are dated. 1 of them was a semi pro mma fighter another one was trained by large yes by large. Um, so.

06:20.19
Dr. Avrum Weiss
Okay, okay.

06:27.99
Dr. Avrum Weiss
Okay, but by and large it's not by and large it's not physical.

06:36.12
Bruce Anthony
Okay, since we jumped the gun. Let's talk about this book that you wrote can you explain to my audience about the book that you wrote that deals specifically with this subject.

06:38.62
Dr. Avrum Weiss
Okay. Yes, yes, so I wrote the book because this just started happening again and again and again and again and again in my office and then so I started I learned to ask this question of men and it. Just seemed like it just fit for every straight guy that I talked with it just seemed to be true for every guy and and just like my conversation with you. That's exactly how it went every time at first they'd be like no, it's not me but then like how long did it take before you understood exactly where it's like a minute.

07:12.63
Bruce Anthony
See.

07:18.27
Bruce Anthony
2 minutes 2 minutes yes

07:20.53
Dr. Avrum Weiss
2 minutes right so that's like on the long end of how long it takes guys to understand it and then like this happened with my son like at first he's like nope not true, not of me and then he comes back in the room a minute later and he's like so do you mean like when I was younger and I would like be at a party and. And afraid to talk to the prettiest girl in the room I'm like yes son that's what I'm talking about like it like almost like yeah yeah, it's almost like I've yet to meet a straight guy that this isn't true of and so then I started thinking like well how come everybody doesn't know this It's so i.

07:43.50
Bruce Anthony
That fear of rejection.

07:54.92
Bruce Anthony
A.

07:57.64
Dr. Avrum Weiss
You know, like when you learn something and then you see it everywhere and you wonder how come everybody does How does people not know this. It seems so obvious to me So then I started writing the book about it because it became like something I couldn't not see it seems so obvious to me.

08:04.20
Bruce Anthony
In here.

08:11.79
Bruce Anthony
Here.

08:16.10
Dr. Avrum Weiss
That I sort of had to write about it because I didn't understand and then I said it started getting people started saying to me this was unbelievably helpful. This is like this has really changed things for me this has helped in my marriage this has helped in my life and so I don't I see I get comfortable. I get uncomfortable immediately because I don't it annoys the hell out of me when people talk about discovering something because I don't think anybody discovers anything I think people just reformulate things and put things together. So I I don't think I just feel like I sort of. Channeled something that was already like people wrote about this one hundred and twenty years ago Freud wrote about this and then we I mean Freud wrote about castration anxiety what the hell is that you know well I mean I just mean literally what is it I mean right? Okay, yeah, the road.

08:58.46
Bruce Anthony
Okay. I Don't know what is castration anxiety. Yeah okay, literally like well I mean yes, no man that I know of it doesn't have a fear of his member being taken away from him. We have medicines.

09:12.83
Dr. Avrum Weiss
Okay, right? Okay, so castration right? right? Okay, so if Freud wrote about castration anxiety. Obviously he was thinking about fear of women.

09:19.93
Bruce Anthony
We have medicines to make sure that our member continuously works despite the fact, how do we get? So yeah, okay I understand what you're saying.

09:31.28
Dr. Avrum Weiss
Because who would castrate you but woman. Also you you look back centuries ago, centuries and centuries ago almost every culture has images of what in Spanish We call Vagina dentata.

09:32.26
Bruce Anthony
Um.

09:47.47
Bruce Anthony
Okay, no I don't teeth. Okay, okay, why would Virginia is why would they? why? Okay I'm trying to get the connection here.

09:49.27
Dr. Avrum Weiss
You know enough Spanish to know what that is teeth Vaginas with teeth. So like why? why would? why would ancient cultures like all the ancient cultures.

10:05.38
Bruce Anthony
My.

10:07.20
Dr. Avrum Weiss
African Cultures Asian Cultures European cultures Asian cultures. They all had statues and paintings of Vaginas with teeth. What were they saying? why would they have images of vaginas with teeth. Well just.

10:25.10
Bruce Anthony
I Don't know they're just afraid afraid of losing their member because of a woman. Ah.

10:26.69
Dr. Avrum Weiss
Just yeah, well in particular. Ah, but in particular what what act like don't be vulnerable with women or you'll lose your manhood. It's pretty straightforward.

10:41.14
Bruce Anthony
Yeah, so that's a common that's a common problem now. Um with the Alpha male mentality and a lot of my friends a lot of my guy friends joke on me because I.

10:44.30
Dr. Avrum Weiss
Um, yeah, yeah.

10:52.53
Dr. Avrum Weiss
Yeah, and.

10:56.94
Bruce Anthony
Try to be emotionally in tune. Especially when I'm in relationships to try to understand and be a part of my partner and they say no and a men are just supposed to do what we do and be providers and you know that's that's what we are. That's what a man is and I was like you know I don't I don't really feel like.

10:58.42
Dr. Avrum Weiss
D Yeah E right? right. Yeah, but they're coming From. They're coming from where those cultures are all like don't be vulnerable because she'll bite it off.

11:16.48
Bruce Anthony
It's a lot of misogyny. So how do you.

11:23.64
Bruce Anthony
Right? So when you're working with your clients and they come to this realization that they have the these fear of of women and some of them probably identify as quote unquote. Alpha Males. How do you get past the misogyny of hey you gotta be open to your female. You can't be closed off.

11:47.21
Dr. Avrum Weiss
Yeah, yeah, well, it's a great question I Love your question and here's the thing you can't push somebody and so I would never say you gotta be because you don't have to be you can you? You can be.

11:56.66
Bruce Anthony
A. Well yeah, true.

12:06.54
Dr. Avrum Weiss
As Lonely and miserable as you are now for the rest of your life be my guest but when you get tired of being as Lonely and miserable and depressed and suicidal as you are now then let me know and I'd be happy to tell you. How you can be happier and not so lonely and not so miserable when you get sick of enough of how your life is going now and I absolutely can tell you how to be happier, but that's up to you.

12:37.76
Bruce Anthony
Um, okay, and and when they come to this realization, especially the way you just described it I want to be happier. What are the things that I need to do and I have a lot of men out here. There are listening. And at first glance I know what they thought this interview was going to be yay. He's going to tell us he's going to tell us that the women need to stay in their place and then we're fine just the way we are and they're slowly realizing that was not the way that we were going with this so how do you with for those men.

12:57.23
Dr. Avrum Weiss
What it.

13:03.87
Dr. Avrum Weiss
Um, yeah, that's that's the.

13:12.57
Dr. Avrum Weiss
Yeah.

13:12.85
Bruce Anthony
That are listening to this and maybe got that realization just as you described your clients are getting right? and that minute and they're like oh I am afraid of a woman and they say to themselves. Okay I'm ready I'm ready to open up and be vulnerable to a woman I don't want to be afraid anymore. What are some of the things that they can do.

13:19.34
Dr. Avrum Weiss
Okay.

13:30.31
Bruce Anthony
Ah, to start to move in that direction.

13:30.73
Dr. Avrum Weiss
Well my answer is going to be a little counterintuitive because it starts it starts in a direction that might surprise you and might surprise them which is it doesn't start with women. It starts with men. It starts with other men because it is too threatening.

13:34.60
Bruce Anthony
Okay.

13:42.41
Bruce Anthony
Who okay.

13:50.50
Dr. Avrum Weiss
Start with a woman because there's too much baggage. There's too much fear. It's too intimidating to start off being vulnerable with a woman so I had an experience I've been running groups with men for about 15 years and most therapists first of all.

13:51.29
Bruce Anthony
H.

14:02.32
Bruce Anthony
The.

14:08.56
Dr. Avrum Weiss
Therapist Ah therapists gossip terribly about men and part of my part of my crusade is I've been going around the country doing workshops for men and giving therapists a lot of crap about the way they talk about men which I love doing.

14:12.72
Bruce Anthony
Okay.

14:23.33
Bruce Anthony
Can you give me an example of some of this not direct gossip but an an idea of what you talking.

14:27.80
Dr. Avrum Weiss
Um, no, no, ah absolutely direct Gossip I'll give you direct gossip. So there's ah there is a a book that is written a book written for women who want to work with male clients and they basically talk about men like they're retarded.

14:41.16
Bruce Anthony
Um, okay, who.

14:45.41
Dr. Avrum Weiss
They but they basically talk about men like like like you would treat a retarded child and and they basically say so when you work with men. You have to really be careful and they're not very good with feelings and so you have to kind of dumb it down for them and so I said to the author that she's.

14:48.30
Bruce Anthony
E.

15:03.91
Bruce Anthony
Here.

15:04.67
Dr. Avrum Weiss
Teaching this in a class and I said imagine if you'd written that paragraph about African-american clients. You would be brought up before a licensing board if you'd written or about gay clients or you know or anybody else imagine if you'd written. But.

15:10.28
Bruce Anthony
Are who in here.

15:21.60
Dr. Avrum Weiss
But why is it that we think you can say things like that about men and nobody seems to mind.

15:27.42
Bruce Anthony
Um, is it because of Society's view of men and that we should just be able to just take anything.

15:32.85
Dr. Avrum Weiss
Yes, yeah, well because we think men are are stupid because we think men are emotionally retarded and and and and I'll give you another perfect example, if you go to a computer right now to Google and and you type in the word narcissist. What will what will come up on your screen. Oh yeah, and and it's going to be the worst insults you've ever seen and more importantly, it's it's un I don't know if this is a word uncurable so in my day.

15:55.19
Bruce Anthony
Ah, oh in the picture of a man. Yeah.

16:09.79
Dr. Avrum Weiss
When we talked about narcissism in school. We talked about how to treat narcissism it was considered treatable. It was just ah yes, it is yes.

16:16.51
Bruce Anthony
Yeah I thought narcissism was a spectrum. There's a difference between everybody has a form of narcissism. There's a difference between narcissism and a narcissist.

16:27.53
Dr. Avrum Weiss
Well well, here's a here's a a little factoid for you on the it's a test mmpi. It's a personality test graduate students in psychology having the average graduates in psychology have an elevation in the narcissistic scale. How about that? okay. So now we were we were taught we were trained in how to deal with narcissism in psychotherapy but now narcissism is just another way of talking about men and it is now considered so all the articles online are oh ten ten tips for spotting a narcissist.

16:55.41
Bruce Anthony
The.

17:05.50
Dr. Avrum Weiss
And the solution is always get the hell as far away as you can. It's never like how to be nice to him how to help him it No, it's it's it's like a disease for which there is no cure. Another example, yeah.

17:20.81
Bruce Anthony
Yeah, the younger. Yeah, the younger generation says that toxic men toxic men is just another form of saying a narcissistic male. Ah, but I know a lot of toxic women out there too by the way.

17:24.74
Dr. Avrum Weiss
And yeah, yeah, right? And there's that right? but it's never done with any compassion or empathy. It's a death sentence if you you know once you have you know, sorry to use this term the n word put on you.

17:36.84
Bruce Anthony
A a a.

17:44.15
Dr. Avrum Weiss
It's like that's a death sentence and it's that's it you know, tell all your friends Fred is a narcissist stay as far the away as you can so again, this is all I've forgotten the term the opposite of misogyny androy I think is the word mista androgyia miss.

17:52.60
Bruce Anthony
Yeah.

18:02.36
Dr. Avrum Weiss
Irish to get the work but you know it's It's male bashing and that's just become perfectly acceptable in the culture.

18:03.61
Bruce Anthony
A.

18:08.97
Bruce Anthony
So when you say the first step is for men not to go to women but to go to men. What do you other men. What do you mean by that.

18:18.20
Dr. Avrum Weiss
Um, other men. What I mean is this there is a chapter in the book which is very important to me and that is it's a sort of.. It's almost like a set of instructions for other men. How to find other men who want to have real conversations with other men about these issues and so it's a chapter like basically says how to find Basically what I suggest is form a book group with other men because that's not threatening.

18:42.70
Bruce Anthony
A.

18:47.80
Dr. Avrum Weiss
If you if you go to other guys and say hey want to have a consciousness raising group. They're not going to do it. But if you go to guys right? But if you go to the guys and say would you like to have a book group and use this book as a way of just a conversation starters you know and get to get I think guys would be willing to do that. Especially.

18:50.48
Bruce Anthony
Yeah, no.

19:02.20
Bruce Anthony
Ah.

19:05.73
Dr. Avrum Weiss
Because the title's sort of interesting and use it to get guys together who would be interested in talking about this kind of stuff and hopefully after you finish the book. You would keep meeting and talking and use that group to learn how to talk with other guys about.

19:05.97
Bruce Anthony
Right.

19:16.96
Bruce Anthony
Are.

19:24.45
Dr. Avrum Weiss
Not just sports but yourselves learn how to learn how to talk more about more personally more openly and develop those skills learn how to be comfortable talking more personally more open so the the story I was going to tell you is I started doing groups with men fifteen years ago and I remember the first night I remember standing outside the room thinking. This is the worst idea I've ever had. This is this is going to be awful. They're going to talk about business. They're going to talk shop. They're gonna talk sports they're gonna talk politics. They're not going to do any real work. It's going to be the most boring night of my professional life.

19:49.31
Bruce Anthony
Things.

19:59.70
Bruce Anthony
So.

20:01.72
Dr. Avrum Weiss
Well, it was the opposite. It was one of the most open personal first groups I've ever done and within you know a month or 2 These guys are are like opening up and being vulnerable in ways I couldn't. I'd never seen in a mixed group and my men's groups are the only groups I've been doing groups for 50 years. My men's groups are the only groups where people look each other in the eyes and talk about loving each other and I don't mean I Love you bro I mean like looking at each other.

20:19.35
Bruce Anthony
Her.

20:31.17
Bruce Anthony
Right.

20:35.98
Dr. Avrum Weiss
And talking about let I mean it breaks every stereotype out there.

20:43.35
Bruce Anthony
It seems like what you're describing to me and it's funny because you're breaking an addiction seems like it's it's similar to like a a or um, ah or n a meetings where people are open and vulnerable and make a connection.

20:56.13
Dr. Avrum Weiss
Um, yeah, yes, yes.

20:59.83
Bruce Anthony
And I would say it's it is breaking an addiction to the mindset that these men used to have that that bonds them and grows them closer.

21:04.76
Dr. Avrum Weiss
Yes I think it's a good. Yeah yeah, yeah, yeah, 1 site let me turn this light on it's getting a little born ready.

21:18.11
Bruce Anthony
Okay, Dr Weiss this men's group I'm all for it I want to join the men's group but I want to talk about specifically just like with a a and n a um these meetings where these people are curing themselves of a disease and addiction. For this particular one I want to say the addiction is um, the close minded closed off emotions of men. What are some of the triumphs and failures because just in any group some people get it and stick with it and some people don't.

21:52.80
Dr. Avrum Weiss
Yeah, let me start a half step back and say the only my only issue with talking about is addiction and what I've actually come to believe is that we've all been sold a bill of goods. So I don't I think this is how men naturally are I think.

22:02.82
Bruce Anthony
Oh.

22:09.81
Dr. Avrum Weiss
We've all been sold a bill of goods to think that men are naturally closed and shut down and withdrawn and I think that's a load of crap I think men are is naturally open and sharing and as women are yeah so that's what I've learned. Yeah, that's all.

22:20.72
Bruce Anthony
Okay, right? Yeah, this is a learned phrase. Yeah, this is a learned thing from society society I use the example of 2 little kids hurt themselves. One's a boy. One's a girl. They both start crying.

22:28.65
Dr. Avrum Weiss
Right? right.

22:36.96
Dr. Avrum Weiss
Um, yeah, yes, right? right? Yeah right? No it just.

22:38.60
Bruce Anthony
Little girl gets consoled. The little boy says hey little boys don't cry right? So look I get that it is It is that but and and addiction might not be the right word. It's it's a mindset. It's a mindset.

22:50.40
Dr. Avrum Weiss
I wasn't correcting you I just wanted to it was an opportunity to make that point because I think we forget because we become so overlaid with the culture.. There's really very interesting research and probably all of us remember you know my friendships with guys when I was a kid. I was as close and the research confirms boys are as close with their guy friends as girls are with their girlfriends. We have very very intense Close. You know we had sleepovers and we played together every day after school. You know my mom had to drag me inside. You know I mean we're not.

23:16.35
Bruce Anthony
Are.

23:30.70
Dr. Avrum Weiss
Deficient in interpersonal emotional skills. It's all just mucked up and covered over but it's all there but but men come to believe that we're deficient. We we buy into this bill of goods.

23:45.74
Bruce Anthony
Okay, so it's funny because yeah, the tribes are failures but it's funny I want to make a personal aside because I have ah 3 best friends one is a female and the other two are are guys and my two guy friends have known each other since they were eight years old we're all in our mid 40 s now.

23:47.10
Dr. Avrum Weiss
So triumphs and failures. Yeah, no.

24:02.33
Bruce Anthony
They've known each other since they were eight years old I've known both of them since I was 16 so over 30 years and we're close even though there's distance they have families now we still have a group chat and talk that bond is really really close now. 1 of my friends I will say I love you too and he will say it back. Cause I just had a birthday celebration last summer they came out and I said hey guys I love you one of them said it back and I told the other one hey man I love you go ahead. Man stop with that stuff. Hey man I love you. He just that I know he does. He just doesn't say it. Um and and I know that that.

24:36.15
Dr. Avrum Weiss
Right? yeah.

24:42.50
Bruce Anthony
And know he does I know he loves me I know that he would do just about anything for me but he just has a hard time saying those words. Um, but the triumphs and the failures of this men's group. What are some examples of of some situations where men have really come through.

24:49.44
Dr. Avrum Weiss
Right.

25:01.55
Bruce Anthony
And and really learn something and then there's other situations where maybe the development didn't quite get to where you wanted to.

25:08.45
Dr. Avrum Weiss
Well I mean on a simplest level probably half the guys in the group have have stopped drinking over the course in the group. Yeah, which is you know, considering these are guys you know in their forty s and up this is pretty.

25:15.62
Bruce Anthony
Wow.

25:26.32
Dr. Avrum Weiss
And and we're not a recovery group. You know so it's not like that's a focus of the group. It's just guys who have gotten to a point in the group where they're like you know what? this is really I'm on a path here to having a better life and I'm.

25:26.52
Bruce Anthony
Bright.

25:42.00
Dr. Avrum Weiss
Realizing more and more that this is in the way of my having a better life and so I don't want to do this anymore. Well in some cases they were yeah.

25:50.63
Bruce Anthony
So they're not alcoholics but but do you think that all okay in some cases they were but but ah so they're not coming there like you said for recover. Ah, but.

26:01.30
Dr. Avrum Weiss
Fort. No right? It's not a not a recovery group.

26:05.43
Bruce Anthony
Do you think that some of these men I know you can't speak for all of them are say definitively. But but for some of these men that part of the reason why they were drinking is because they felt like they couldn't express themselves. Emotionally.

26:15.61
Dr. Avrum Weiss
Yes, absolutely absolutely so I would say the largest 6 the largest outcome in this group if you were looking to measure something would be their ability to feel what they feel express what they're feeling and to. Connect with another person in a deep emotional way. So there are a number of people so there there are a lot of times where where something someone will start talking about someone in the group something in the group. Someone who's been the group of number of years and someone the group will just sort of interrupt them and go you know.

26:36.70
Bruce Anthony
You.

26:54.38
Dr. Avrum Weiss
What you're saying is important but I really have to interrupt you to say I can't believe the way you're talking about this I remember when you came into group and it was three months before you said a word you know you sort of sat here quietly for months unable to even sort of formulate a sentence about what was going on with you.

27:04.40
Bruce Anthony
Are.

27:13.59
Dr. Avrum Weiss
And now you're just sort of talking on and on and on about how you are and what's going on with you and in-depth sort of open expression of how you feel like it was nothing like it was just the easiest thing in the world for you to do so that's sort of the most obvious and then that's going on at home.

27:21.35
Bruce Anthony
Nothing.

27:30.41
Bruce Anthony
Oh.

27:32.33
Dr. Avrum Weiss
You know we had a sort of interesting thing just being creative one night one of the guys in group who was pretty emotionally constricted and came into group talking about not knowing how he felt and not knowing what an emotion was was just really crying and really emoting and a lot of deep feelings. He had. He had a pretty a very emotionally restrictive background a very conservative charismatic christian don't feel anything kind of background and he's just bawling in the group and I asked him one point I said have you talked with your wife about any of this and he said no i.

27:59.11
Bruce Anthony
In here.

28:10.22
Dr. Avrum Weiss
Really having I said is she home now because it's all on Zoom he said? yes she is I said you know what we've still got about 45 minutes left in group. Why don't you go talk to it right now while we're here to talk about how so a left group.

28:12.94
Bruce Anthony
In here.

28:20.74
Bruce Anthony
It.

28:28.17
Dr. Avrum Weiss
While he was still full of feeling went and talked to his wife and came back and was able to then talk with the group. So it's ah sort of a neat use of Zoom because you couldn't do that if that wasn't and again that was so then we were able to process as a group how that had gone.

28:28.53
Bruce Anthony
Are right.

28:42.92
Bruce Anthony
The.

28:44.93
Dr. Avrum Weiss
So there are a lot of stories like that of people sort of doing and and that's why I was saying the first step is to talk with other guys about it first. So it was a great example of using the group to open the feelings. Then taking them back to his primary relationship and then being able to process how that had gone back on the group that was just like a perfect example of how that had gone.

29:05.74
Bruce Anthony
It feels like what you're describing to me with a group with men is that once we emotionally open up to other men and see that it's okay and learn how to do it the judgment because I feel like a lot of men are and I love.

29:16.57
Dr. Avrum Weiss
Yeah, and learn how to do it.

29:25.54
Bruce Anthony
What you said emotionally constricted I Love that um saying I love that um I feel like a lot of men are emotionally constricted, especially when dealing with women um because they don't want other men to perceive them as.

29:25.87
Dr. Avrum Weiss
Yeah.

29:42.53
Bruce Anthony
The the cool term. It's not a cool term but the young people say Sip right? is not to be perceived as a simp as somebody who is weak and um, being controlled by a woman. So this group allows them to open up with other men so that.

29:47.52
Dr. Avrum Weiss
Um, yeah, yeah.

30:00.51
Dr. Avrum Weiss
Yeah, yeah.

30:00.72
Bruce Anthony
Fear of being judged by other men is gone So now they can Confront women.

30:06.12
Dr. Avrum Weiss
And it and it really works I don't know about Confront but but you know they they it's like they yeah but yeah, they they learn. It's like they learn a skill and they learn to be comfortable with themselves So a lot of what happens in relationships and with men and women relationship.

30:10.24
Bruce Anthony
Yeah, not address it there.

30:25.65
Dr. Avrum Weiss
Is that women are much more practiced at emotional relationships than men are because they're off with each other practicing all kinds, feelings and relationships they're you know they're doing all that stuff. Well we're playing football right.

30:39.84
Bruce Anthony
In here in here.

30:42.59
Dr. Avrum Weiss
So then we come together. We don't know what the hell they're talking about and and we're we're way at a disadvantage and so we lock down because we're a light being at a disadvantage. You know it's it's like an away game for us right? It's not only in a way game. It's in a away game in Philadelphia you know the crowd is host.

30:49.50
Bruce Anthony
Here right. Right? yes.

31:02.10
Dr. Avrum Weiss
The crowd is hostile right? My my son lives in Philly and he just invited me to come to watch the game where harden's coming back to Philadelphia for the first time right? Okay, so that's that's what it's like for men in an emotional argument for women. It's in away game and hardens it back. You know so it's like.

31:09.41
Bruce Anthony
Oh goodness that's gonna be crazy. Yeah.

31:20.60
Dr. Avrum Weiss
We're very uncomfortable right? So but when you when you practice those skills with other men then it then it feels like a home game or at least a friendly away game you know and you feel more comfortable. It's not. It's not hostile territory.

31:36.60
Bruce Anthony
I Feel this conversation is not only important to the males. The males in my audience but also to the females who have a difficult time understanding Why the men that they date are ah have a hard time expressing themselves. Um.

31:40.75
Dr. Avrum Weiss
Yes, yes.

31:50.60
Dr. Avrum Weiss
Absolutely.

31:53.94
Bruce Anthony
Okay, so that was a triumph where the the gentleman who was emotionally strict restricted um, opened up to his wife. What is some of the the failures where it just doesn't it just doesn't work out for some men.

31:55.00
Dr. Avrum Weiss
Yeah.

32:05.87
Dr. Avrum Weiss
Well don't you know I don't know as much about the failures because with the failures guys Just don't stick in the group and so I don't I don't get to learn as much about why I Just know it didn't It didn't stick that you know I think probably most of the failures are on me.

32:11.11
Bruce Anthony
A.

32:24.89
Dr. Avrum Weiss
In that probably I either. They weren't ready for group or I didn't do enough typically I work with people individually before I put them in a group and so probably it's just I made the wrong call they weren't ready I have interestingly I have 2 people in group now who I put in group a. And they didn't do well at all I took them out and then sometime later put in group b and they're doing quite well and so just different people either either that.

32:51.21
Bruce Anthony
What is the difference between the two groups is just they they vibe with the different personalities in group b.

33:00.22
Dr. Avrum Weiss
Either that or they had some more time to do some more work individually and then so it's hard to say you know why? but they're both doing really well in the other group.

33:08.81
Bruce Anthony
Okay, that's good. Okay, so you can't speak to specifics because you said that you know they either leave and you kind of don't know why. But if you were to yeah if you were to theorize why they would drop from the group and no longer continue.

33:17.61
Dr. Avrum Weiss
I Then I lose track.

33:28.43
Bruce Anthony
What would some of those theories be just you put it all on you.

33:29.97
Dr. Avrum Weiss
Ah, my theory would be that I did I made the wrong call they weren't ready. Yeah I think so I mean it's my job to know when people are ready for group and so if it didn't go. Well yeah I think it is on me.

33:41.59
Bruce Anthony
Okay, all right? Um, okay so I don't know if you could talk to talk specifically about the gentleman that was emotionally Christ restricted and in the Zoom call went to go talk to his wife. But if you can how did that turn out.

33:54.63
Dr. Avrum Weiss
It turned out great I mean I think she was delighted that that he was being that he came to her in such an open vulnerable state and shared that with her I think she was delighted and he was delighted because it's like the pump was primed.

33:57.98
Bruce Anthony
Yeah.

34:10.90
Dr. Avrum Weiss
You know he came to the conversation. The pump was already primed.

34:10.45
Bruce Anthony
Um, okay so men are in this men group. They're learning valuable skills as far as emotional communication for that gentleman.

34:27.32
Bruce Anthony
You said hey I think this is the time Why don't you go and talk to your partner when is it when do you advise the men in in these groups to go and talk to their partners at what point is there is it just you see something in them or is it.

34:32.42
Dr. Avrum Weiss
Me.

34:46.67
Bruce Anthony
You know trigger comments that they make where you say they've they've turned that corner.

34:50.34
Dr. Avrum Weiss
I think anytime you can do it in group you can do it at home I think if if you're able to do it in group you're able to do it at home because it's not like you're going to talk about it once at home. It's not like it's not like the big performance 1 and done. You're going to be talking about it at home again and again and again. So I think. As soon as you've talked about it in group you're readyed talk about it home I mean the idea is you want to get in the habit of talking about it home and so take take a shot because if whatever part goes well great, whatever part doesn't go well bring it back to group and let's talk about. Why it didn't go out.

35:27.63
Bruce Anthony
And and what ah do you have any scenarios or situations in which men took their experiences from the group and they went to go so speak to their significant other and it didn't go Well. And what were some of the reasons why it didn't go well.

35:45.21
Dr. Avrum Weiss
Um, yeah I mean there's it happens all the time. But it's as that's as valuable as it going well because there's as much to learn from it not going Well as it going well because when it doesn't go wells.

35:54.11
Bruce Anthony
And.

36:02.54
Dr. Avrum Weiss
When you learn so it's it's like it's like the difference between live and recorded. You know when when you when you come to therapy and talk about all the things that didn't go well five years ago in your life. You're like yeah I don't really understand that but you come to therapy and say yesterday.

36:16.40
Bruce Anthony
Are.

36:19.37
Dr. Avrum Weiss
Here's what happened with like oh that's kind of live or close to live and it's much more. It's got a lot more energy and we really more likely to be able to make some changes with that because it just happened.

36:30.64
Bruce Anthony
Right? And you can learn more from your failures than you can from your successes so when when the men in these groups. They come to you and they say Dr wise I think.

36:34.35
Dr. Avrum Weiss
Yeah, absolutely.

36:46.64
Bruce Anthony
Think I'm ready to talk to my girlfriend wife partner. Do you suggest to because they typically come to you and like you described in the first segment they're saying ah you know these women have all these problems with me right? So they're they are legitimate.

36:52.76
Dr. Avrum Weiss
Are.

37:02.67
Dr. Avrum Weiss
Yes, yes, probably is.

37:03.61
Bruce Anthony
Problems that these women have right? Okay, it could even be a list. Okay, it can even be a list of problems that women have with these men would do you tell them? Okay, let's ease you into this. Let's tackle the thing that is that would cause the less. Least amount of confrontation or do you say you know what go in not guns ablazing because this isn't a confrontation you corrected me earlier and you were right about this.. It's not a confrontation. It's a conversation. Um, So how do you tell them to approach this conversation or to approach this talk.

37:37.17
Dr. Avrum Weiss
Well I'm not it I'm not interested in the list and I wouldn't start with the list at all I'm interested in how it goes between you and me so I'm interested in the process. Not the list. So so the list.

37:46.50
Bruce Anthony
Are.

37:55.10
Dr. Avrum Weiss
Will never go well until we figure out a better, a better process between the 2 of us so the conversation that we need to have is how are you and I going to talk about our disagreements before we get to the content of the disagreements.

37:59.40
Bruce Anthony
Are.

38:10.50
Bruce Anthony
So setting to use your analogy about sports and games setting rules to the games to the game.

38:12.21
Dr. Avrum Weiss
We need to figure out how we're going to talk about our disagreements.

38:20.95
Dr. Avrum Weiss
Huh Um, yeah, not quite rules but more so like I just taught a class an online class right before this and the woman brought an example and she said you know how do how do I get my boyfriend to think I'm not criticizing him when I'm criticizing him. Was basically what what her question was and I said well don't criticize him because she said when it when I What was the word she Used. It was some new phrase that I wasn't when when I ask for an adjustment I'm like that sounds like another word for a criticism.

38:39.88
Bruce Anthony
Ah, okay.

38:49.73
Bruce Anthony
He.

38:56.49
Dr. Avrum Weiss
You know and the adjustment she wanted was when she dated someone and he wanted to split the bill and she preferred that he pay for it and I said well why? why are you entitled to ask him the bit like.

39:06.71
Bruce Anthony
Service.

39:16.42
Dr. Avrum Weiss
Why Why do you get to ask him to pay for it like that's that's a criticism. You're telling me should pay for you. That's There's no way to dress that up. Yeah, you can't dress that pig up and make it look like so I said so that you you can't. You can't dress that up and make it look not look like a criticism because it is a criticism. So Sometimes these things are not ever going to get dressed up because they are critical. So there's that category which is it doesn't matter how you dress it Up. It's just a criticism and then you could look at.

39:34.31
Bruce Anthony
Oh.

39:42.10
Bruce Anthony
Right.

39:50.56
Dr. Avrum Weiss
So I'm going to do a sidebar here because the the project I'm working on now because I got really interested by how often men say my wife is critical of me all the time and she keeps moving the goal post and it doesn't matter when when I do the 5 things on the list. She's got 5 more so I started wondering like.

39:50.96
Bruce Anthony
Okay.

40:09.91
Dr. Avrum Weiss
What is that about? So now I'm working on a project and any women listening to the show are welcome to email me and participate in this research I'm interviewing women about what did you learn from your mother about men. What did your mother teach you.

40:25.83
Bruce Anthony
For those that are for those that are listening on the audio that didn't see my face in a video it was it was like all you're open enough a can of worms here. Yeah, you open up a can of worms here. But let's do it. Let's go for it.

40:27.83
Dr. Avrum Weiss
See I Love this stuff. It was a it was a made it was that it was a major pucker. It was a big pucker. Yeah yeah, right? So yeah, like not just from what she said to you. But from what she modeled in the way she treated your father.. What did you? What did you learn from her about men because a lot of women are critical because they watch their mothers be critical towards their fathers and in you know in.

41:01.98
Bruce Anthony
Hey.

41:05.98
Dr. Avrum Weiss
The way they behave towards their father. So this is a multi-generational thing so going coming back to your example which I've half forgotten but you'll help me remember it the guy right? The guy.

41:17.00
Bruce Anthony
With the the yeah the guy. Yeah.

41:22.95
Dr. Avrum Weiss
So rather than address the list which is going to go nowhere fast. It's just going to be a dog chasing its tail. What I would have him say to her is not. You know how often I take out the trash or anything I would be like I would like us to talk about the way we talk with each other. When there's something going on with me that you're unhappy with I don't want to talk about the garbage and I want to talk about that this and the data this I would like for us to find a better way to talk with each other when there's something going on that you're unhappy with because I don't the way you do it now.

41:46.74
Bruce Anthony
Um.

42:01.78
Dr. Avrum Weiss
Makes me feel criticized and resentful like when you the way you talk to me about the garbage now. It'd be the last it be a kale would freeze oh before I take out the garbage So that's not working So um.

42:16.60
Bruce Anthony
X.

42:20.81
Dr. Avrum Weiss
You don't get what you want and I don't get what I want So Let's surely we can find a better way because I don't think the garbage is really what's on your mind. So Let's see if we can figure out when you talking to me about the garbage I think something else is really on your mind. So Let's see if we can have a deeper conversation. A better conversation. A more personal conversation. What's really bugging you and I think what she would say is something like you know I feel like I am the only goddamn grown up in the family.

42:55.50
Bruce Anthony
Are.

42:57.20
Dr. Avrum Weiss
Ah, you think you I feel like you're a little child I feel like you don't even notice that the garbage I feel like you leave everything up to me right? and I don't want to be the only grown up in the house I Want you to notice.

43:08.40
Bruce Anthony
Ah.

43:13.53
Dr. Avrum Weiss
That the guard I don't want to be in this by myself and I don't want you to act like 1 of the children. So and then now we're having a real conversation. Okay baby I don't want you don't feel like the only you know baby see I say baby. So how come men call women baby that's part of it like right? um. Now we could have a real conversation because now we're not talking about stupid garbage and you're not just mad at me all the time now I have some understanding of why you're mad at me all the time and I have some chance of maybe getting underneath the garbage and talking about what you're really angry about and maybe I could do something about it. So I don't walk around on egg shells all the time because I might understand what it is. That's really going on.

43:56.93
Bruce Anthony
Yeah, so that's interesting that youre bringing it up because a lot of time. It's the dynamics and the relationships and a lot of that is learned from de generational as you said, ah so many I have so many guy friends who are are married.

44:03.65
Dr. Avrum Weiss
Um, a yeah.

44:11.98
Bruce Anthony
And I'm like well how do you help out around the house. Well I do whatever she tells me to do I'm like yeah but like I'm pretty sure she wouldn't want to? yeah yeah I was like she's yeah, it's pretty sure that she would really like it if you like took some initiatives so that she didn't have to do that because.

44:14.88
Dr. Avrum Weiss
Yeah, see start right? that help help help out around the house like it's her house.

44:26.50
Dr. Avrum Weiss
Right.

44:31.25
Bruce Anthony
I'm not saying all fathers are like this. But for the most part if you look throughout History Moms are a lot more involved in the day-to-day actions of children's lives of getting them up and ready and prepared ah than men are and I can see how women would.

44:41.14
Dr. Avrum Weiss
Yeah, yeah, right? Yeah, that's right? but all the research says when women moved in large numbers into the workforce that men.

44:50.17
Bruce Anthony
Would say it's like having another child.

44:59.29
Dr. Avrum Weiss
By and large didn't do any more at home. So women ended up doing the same amount of work at home and working outside the home and so why wouldn't they be pissed off. They have every right to be pissed off so by and large families have not made that adjustment and obviously some rethinking has to go on there.

45:02.24
Bruce Anthony
Um, not yeah.

45:08.10
Bruce Anthony
New.

45:18.84
Dr. Avrum Weiss
So either. You're going to walk around as a guy Either. You're going to walk around the wife who is pissed off and resentful and by the way doesn't want to have sex with you because she's pissed off and resentful all time or you're going to talk about it and try to figure out something that's more equitable and. You know why wouldn't you do that.

45:36.87
Bruce Anthony
Yeah I One of my friends said to me that he found out. He gets more action from his wife when he just takes the initiative around the house.

45:47.26
Dr. Avrum Weiss
Oh hell yes.

45:50.62
Bruce Anthony
And and I was like yeah that kind of makes sense I mean you're taking a load off of her. She's going to be more appreciative. She's going to want to do things with you as opposed to her doing absolutely everything all the time being tired and then you asking for a reward.

45:52.75
Dr. Avrum Weiss
Of course, of course.

46:01.91
Dr. Avrum Weiss
And and and you treated Well, you're gonna treat it like a maid and then and then I mean unless you have sex with the maid you know which is right? but you know if a very wise person. Once said.

46:09.80
Bruce Anthony
Right? Well yeah, so you know, um.

46:19.22
Dr. Avrum Weiss
Ah, the thing men don't understand is that 4 play starts the moment you wake up in the morning. Yeah.

46:25.61
Bruce Anthony
I like that I like that. Okay, um, we bashed men for a quick segment there but I want to get your advice. You gave a little bit but I want to get your advice to the women out there to those men.

46:30.46
Dr. Avrum Weiss
Yeah.

46:41.20
Bruce Anthony
That are coming to them and being vulnerable because I have some female friends of mine that are just like I don't want no sensitive man and I'm like sensitive is him expressing himself like if you don't want any guy to show emotion and you just want a hard guy all the time you're gonna get a hard guy all the time. So What can we. Tell the women out there. Um, as far as being more open to men being vocal with their vulnerability and their emotions.

47:09.54
Dr. Avrum Weiss
Well, this is an interesting question I've never gotten that question before I imagine that a woman who doesn't want a tender vulnerable guy is a woman who has been traumatized and is afraid of her own tender vulnerability would be The only reason I can think.

47:27.89
Bruce Anthony
Um, Wow he.

47:29.33
Dr. Avrum Weiss
That a woman would feel that way and so I would say you should probably think about getting yourself a therapist to figure out why you're so afraid of your own vulnerability.

47:36.37
Bruce Anthony
A.

47:43.48
Bruce Anthony
I'm not going to point out who that was directed towards but you know who you are.

47:47.67
Dr. Avrum Weiss
Well you said earlier you have three best friends and 1 of them's a woman so I could guess.

47:53.86
Bruce Anthony
I'm I'm I'm not I'm not saying is directly her ah not I'm and I'll be honest I'm a little afraid of her. Um Dr Weiss is there anything that that you would like to.

47:59.48
Dr. Avrum Weiss
Yeah, but I can't think of whiles. Yeah.

48:10.37
Bruce Anthony
Include or anything that you would like to say to the audience before I let you go.

48:14.74
Dr. Avrum Weiss
Ah, yes, if you will go to my website which is hopefully you have it in the notes for the show. But if you will go there. Um, you will find my mailing list and I encourage you to sign up there because you will get copies I do write pretty frequently for psychology today.

48:19.12
Bruce Anthony
Yeah, there'll be in a notes.

48:32.70
Dr. Avrum Weiss
And I write on all kinds of stuff and you will get copies of everything I write and I also respond to all emails that I get you within 24 hours if you email me and don't hear back. It's all it's because I didn't get your email. So.

48:46.11
Bruce Anthony
And for a lot of women out there contact Dr Weiss because he's doing some research and you could use your help.

48:53.99
Dr. Avrum Weiss
That's right, That's right if you want to be interviewed on that topic of what you learned from your mom about men I will set up a time and talk with you about that and we will have a good time.

49:02.64
Bruce Anthony
Dr. Wes this has been an absolute pleasure I know my audience has really learned something both men and women I've definitely learned a lot and we're gonna do some self evaluation today. But I just.

49:05.50
Dr. Avrum Weiss
My pleasure as well. Good Yes, well you were great. You were willing to just jump right in there yourself with it right away I appreciate that.

49:19.61
Bruce Anthony
Well on unsolicited perspectives. That's what we do. We talk about topics that that need to be addressed to improve society and me personally my partner in crime my sister that that does the show with me the sibling Happy hour has made it a point. That I need to be more vulnerable on this show. It's not really good for me to interview people and not be interview people and they tell me about themselves and then I not address myself on my own show. So I'm okay, all right I'm gonna text her right after this and say.

49:41.60
Dr. Avrum Weiss
Um, well you you you.

49:48.38
Dr. Avrum Weiss
You tell her I said you get an a plus on that today. Okay, no I said a plus I didn't say improvements I said a plus where you go.

49:57.10
Bruce Anthony
Dr. We said I'm making improvements right? Well okay, okay, a plus a plus. So once again, thank you. It's been my pleasure having you on the show today right.

50:07.50
Dr. Avrum Weiss
My pleasure I enjoyed it.