Gangs, Prison Guards & Lies: With Dr. Brittany Friedman

[00:00:00] Bruce Anthony: Today we dive into the hidden truths of society's darkest corners. The prison system get ready to be informed, challenged, and inspired. As we uncover the stories that demand attention, let's get it. Welcome, first of all, welcome. This is Unsolicited Perspectives. I'm your host, Bruce Anthony. Here to lead the conversation in [00:00:30] important events and topics that are shaping of today's society. Join the conversation and follow us wherever you get your audio podcast. Subscribe to our YouTube channel for our video podcast and YouTube exclusive content rate review.

[00:00:43] Bruce Anthony: Like, comment, share, share with your friends, share with your family. Hell you ever share with your enemies. On today's episode, I'll be interviewing Dr. Brittany Friedman. She's the author of Carral Apartheid, how Lies and White Supremacists Run Our Prison [00:01:00] Systems. We're gonna be talking about prisons, racism, institutional racism, but that's enough of the intro.

[00:01:07] Bruce Anthony: Let's get to the show.  

[00:01:14] Bruce Anthony: I said at the top I have Dr. Brittany with me. She's a sociologist and associate professor at USC. She's an expert in politics in the dark side of institutions. She's also the author of Carceral Apartheid, how Lies and White Supremacists Run [00:01:30] Our Prisons. Dr. Brittany, it's my pleasure to have you on my show.

[00:01:34] Bruce Anthony: I am really excited for the conversation that we're about to have, and I know my audience is really going to learn something. So thank you. Thank you, thank you for coming on the show.

[00:01:45] Dr. Brittany Friedman: Thank you so much, Bruce, for having me, and you know, I'm excited to, to have this conversation. I've been looking forward to it.

[00:01:52] Bruce Anthony: Well, I'm glad that you're excited because what we're gonna be talking about is, is very, very important. But I want to give the audience a little [00:02:00] background on you. So Ken, will you start from the beginning for me? Can you share a little bit about your background, your upbringing, and what kind of shaped your path?

[00:02:09] Dr. Brittany Friedman: Yes. So it just depends on how far back, like we could go back to like Baby Britney, or I'm sure people don't really wanna know that, that that far. So I'll, I'll start like, you know, let's start in high school. High school. I would say college is when I, I really was able to come into my own and, and [00:02:30] nurture my, my curiosity.

[00:02:32] Dr. Brittany Friedman: You know, I, I too, also, I grew up having a level unsolicited perspective, so this is why this is perfect, because I used to get in trouble for pointing out things that I noticed about people. Especially if I pointed out something about an elder, I would get in trouble for, like, for commenting. So it, I really thrived, I think, in school because.

[00:02:56] Dr. Brittany Friedman: I, especially when I got to, uh, do my [00:03:00] PhD, because the PhD is all about asking whatever extreme you want and answering it and you get, you're actually incentivized to go on this independent journey to figure out, you know, different aspects of an, and I've always been curious about what people hide or what institutes try to hide and, and, and when I read something just like completely calling BS on it and that's how I ended up dead in California prisons.

[00:03:28] Dr. Brittany Friedman: I was like, this is just [00:03:30] anytime I would read something put out, especially by law enforcement, I'm like, this is completely fabricated. I can just tell and um, I need to go and investigate this.

[00:03:43] Bruce Anthony: So what you're saying is you have a, a natural ability to see through the lies, and because you could see through the lies, you, you kind of fixate on, well, let me figure out what the real truth is.

[00:03:54] Bruce Anthony: Let me figure out what the right answer is to this question of whatever it is that they're [00:04:00] trying to feed me that I just don't believe.

[00:04:02] Dr. Brittany Friedman: Yes. I, I would say we all have natural inclinations, especially to our personality. And I, I've just always been naturally curious and, and trying to, you know, also bring some levity.

[00:04:16] Dr. Brittany Friedman: 'cause there's been times in my life where I have uncovered things either in my personal life or professional life, and it just kind of took me under because it was so dark. Um. Mm-hmm. And that's why as we were kind of talking a little [00:04:30] earlier, like I, I try to, in my regular life, have a sense of humor about my, about just as I go about my day.

[00:04:38] Dr. Brittany Friedman: Because if not, some of the things that I have seen and what I write about carceral, apartheid, like, it, it just has put me in a dark place. And I realize that's not why I'm here. Like, I, I'm here to, at least for myself, I'm good at. I'm very observant. I'm good at noticing patterns. And finding holes in [00:05:00] what people say or what institutions say.

[00:05:02] Dr. Brittany Friedman: And so that is, that doesn't mean I have to, what I'm seeing though, I can observe it and make sense of it and write about it, but I don't need to take it on so that I personally am not carrying of what I see.

[00:05:17] Bruce Anthony: Okay. So when you say all of these things, it kind of makes sense. 'cause my next question was going to be what kind of, can you share what inspired your focus on intersection of race politics in the, in the prison [00:05:30] system?

[00:05:30] Bruce Anthony: But I. Just those three topics in and of itself are always lending us to questions and digging deeper and more. But can you just explain to us specifically, was there an instance where you were like, this is where I'm going, especially in your PhD program, that you were go and focus on these three things, and what has your journey kind of been like as you've been navigating and asking these questions of these three very, very important subjects.[00:06:00]

[00:06:00] Dr. Brittany Friedman: Well, in graduate school, I first realized that I just, I have to study California prisons because I was just kind of flabbergasted. That's such a weird word. But it really was like, I was like, guess so. I was flabbergasted. I was like, well, Mac, when I, when I saw that in California, I'm like, wow. All of the four major prisoner organizations [00:06:30] that had been reading about in society learning, you know, are all founded in San Quentin within a few years.

[00:06:38] Dr. Brittany Friedman: Well, San Quentin and Tracy, I would say, um, within a few years of each other. And I'm like, how did this happen? That's an anomaly. That is, it is that like all of them. And then they become these huge nationwide groups that become, you know. Criminalized in various ways, and then what we consider [00:07:00] security groups, um, and what, what prison officials call prison gangs.

[00:07:06] Dr. Brittany Friedman: So I'm like this, I just wanna understand how did this happen Because one, why California? Two, why so many different groups and, and groups that divided along racial lines. And then I'm like, this is, so just, you see like as for my like curious mind, I'm like, just like going down the whole asking all these questions.

[00:07:26] Dr. Brittany Friedman: Then I'm like, also all of them have [00:07:30] very clear political rhetoric, like clear political rhetoric goals. So for me, I'm like, okay, I know that governments are saying these are prison gangs and we should be scared. But I'm like, no one organization and we should think of them as organizations. And if you study the human organization, you can actually see a lot more because you're not blinded by the criminal label.

[00:07:57] Dr. Brittany Friedman: And because of that, I was able to [00:08:00] then really show, at least in my book, and, and as I kept going, I'm like, oh, the criminal label is this powerful tool of dehumanization, of subjugation and of, of basically legitimizing, torturing people in isolation U units. And I wouldn't have gotten there if I started, if I just believed what I read from the outset.

[00:08:26] Dr. Brittany Friedman: Like I just believed it. I had to question everything and then [00:08:30] deconstruct it. And I'm like, oh, these are all these groups started as social movement organizations with their particular goals and ideologies, and then prison officials and and correctional officers got involved. And that journey, you know, that like it started as a student of just me asking questions.

[00:08:50] Dr. Brittany Friedman: Asking to have, make people to make introductions For me, when I started to like get into building community in the west coast, I, I was in grad school [00:09:00] in Chicago, so I'm like, okay, I gotta go out to, you know, Cali. I have, I have family in California here now, like now, and I did, but still I'm like, okay, I gotta take these frequent flights, you know?

[00:09:15] Bruce Anthony: Right.

[00:09:16] Dr. Brittany Friedman: Um, so, but yeah.

[00:09:20] Bruce Anthony: So was there, okay, so as you're doing your research, just, you saw this kind of nexus point where it's just this California San Quentin prison where you're [00:09:30] seeing like all of this start, but there's no connection that you personally had to California. It was just you doing research and through your research you stumble across, wait a minute, this is a nexus point.

[00:09:42] Bruce Anthony: This is where all this kind of starts.

[00:09:45] Dr. Brittany Friedman: Well, so it's, it's kind of, it's both. It it is. So it, it, intellectually it was just, it was, was the path of like questioning. Mm-hmm. And trying to understand, um, all of [00:10:00] the points, right? How, how do these organizations form, why did they, they kind of like transform or they, uh, why did they begin as social movement organizations?

[00:10:12] Dr. Brittany Friedman: And then the state takes such an interest in their affairs and, and put them against each other in all of the racial battles. So that really, that was my, my questioning. But then personally, you know, I do have family that migrated out west as a part [00:10:30] of the great migrations out here, and, and that becomes a big focus in my book, which I, I didn't know it was going to be a big focus in my book until I start talking to people and, and doing interviews with people.

[00:10:44] Dr. Brittany Friedman: People who are a part of the original Black Panther party who are a part of various black movements, um, and, uh, incarcerated or not. And so I, I realized like that this journey with their families, especially from the D South [00:11:00] and witnessing the clan and racial violence is, is a huge, um, factor. And then I'm also looking back about my family as I'm talking to my, my parents know I'm going out there.

[00:11:12] Dr. Brittany Friedman: I stay with family sometimes while I'm out in California when I was doing my field work. And they're like, yeah, like, you know, our family moved out there because of the war or because of similar reasons why people left Mississippi and went, 'cause I have family from Mississippi. And so it's just, there were these [00:11:30] connections.

[00:11:32] Dr. Brittany Friedman: That I think we find being a part of the African American diaspora, like there are these like connections of our families moving and migrating to try to flee racial violence or to looking for new opportunities or trying to create joy. Like all these reasons why people are moving around the country.

[00:11:52] Dr. Brittany Friedman: And, and that became a big thing as I'm doing this, as I was doing my work. 'cause I'm like, oh, that my family did that too. And [00:12:00] I have, I have family all over California and some, I don't really know. It's also a part, a part of this that the more I spend more time in California, it's like I live in LA and I have learned from my dad, like I have so much family in Los Angeles.

[00:12:16] Dr. Brittany Friedman: A lot of my family's in Compton, but I don't know them. And that's something we could talk about, but it's because of like different splits in my family. Like we don't, I don't know them well. I have family in Bakersfield, like the Bay. [00:12:30] So it, it's, it's been a journey. There's been the personal journey as well as like the, the other aspects and they overlap at times.

[00:12:41] Bruce Anthony: So you've brought up your book. So let's talk about your book. Your book, carceral Apartheid, how Lies and White Supremacists Run Our Prisons. You shed light on hidden mechanisms within the prison system. What are some of the most starling things that you've found during your research, particularly regarding institutional racism?[00:13:00]

[00:13:01] Dr. Brittany Friedman: I think one of the most shocking things is that, you know, we know like as African Americans, that that people in positions of power are doing things that are, I would say that like cruelty is the point and that like are incredibly like racist and there's an intention behind it. But I was surprised to find written, written evidence of this, like, we know that people are having conversations, [00:13:30] you know, in the modern era people are sending email that they might be protected.

[00:13:34] Dr. Brittany Friedman: Um, but I was finding in the archives, like correspondence and internal memos between prison officials between. Officials from other states and just very di just directly saying what they're going to do. So one quote that kind of just like shocked me, and I read it a few times, I'm gonna paraphrase it, but, um, an official in California was like, you [00:14:00] know, we, we just don't wanna create any martyrs.

[00:14:03] Dr. Brittany Friedman: And I was like, well, what are you doing? Exactly. That was my but you, your facial expression was mine. I read that. I was like, whatcha doing that? You are creating murders. Okay. Right. So these are the types of things that, I don't know if I should have been surprised, but I was, because I, I was looking at someone who wrote this, like for instance, in the sixties, and they're writing it down like, we should not [00:14:30] create martyrs.

[00:14:31] Dr. Brittany Friedman: And it, and it adds even more evidence to narratives that I feel like we have been saying for generations about how institutions are intentionally. Harming our communities and that it's not, they're not collateral consequences. Um, another example is just written evidence of authors arming, um, not self-identified Nazis who went on to form the area.

[00:14:57] Dr. Brittany Friedman: Like saying like, well, I [00:15:00] don't really, we don't really want to have to, you know, take a particular black incarcerated person to court for something that they did, so we just need you all to take care of, of it. And like, see, and, and so there's different quotes. I, I showed throughout the book of these, uh, this, this type of environment and racist intentionality and it's so overt that I think that it was just shocking to find very concrete evidence of it [00:15:30] versus me like making the argument.

[00:15:32] Dr. Brittany Friedman: I, and I'm using all of my amazing interviews, but someone could come to me and say, well, you are only, you're taking it like, only from the perspective of incarcerated people. You know what I mean? Like, I've had critics try to say that to me, like, oh, it's only incarcerated people. And I'm like, yeah, but we should believe incarcerated people.

[00:15:49] Dr. Brittany Friedman: And they're like, they're like, yeah, but it's only from, from the, it's only from one side. And then I'm like, no, look here. Look at this memo dated, you know, March 1st, 1965. The prison of official [00:16:00] said, and I quote, do, do, do, do, do. Like that. And so that has been very powerful and it's why I'm so happy that I, I did a project, I, I decided to, you know, bring the archives to life.

[00:16:13] Dr. Brittany Friedman: I decided, I was like, I have to, I have to use the archives. 'cause then you can use people's own words against them, right? I think that's, I've learned that. You know, you can't, instead of making unfounded accusations, like, okay, it's like a, it's why I love the old, like [00:16:30] black Twitter, you know, like black Twitter invented that.

[00:16:32] Dr. Brittany Friedman: A meme of like this, you, that's my, that's like one of my written memes of all times. And it's, and it's because of what I study and what I find instinct of like, yes, yes. This you, yes, it's you, you said that, you know,

[00:16:49] Bruce Anthony: so when you talk about they don't wanna make any martyrs what would be labeled as gangs, now you're saying we should look at them more as [00:17:00] organizations.

[00:17:01] Bruce Anthony: They're not trying to make black martyrs, which are essentially are becoming, I don't know, an, an epidemic during the sixties with the assassination of Malcolm X, with the assassination of Martin Luther King, Medgar Evers. And these people are becoming. Martyrs. So this, is this a direct to what's happening outside in the world saying, look, we're not gonna have it in our prison systems?

[00:17:25] Dr. Brittany Friedman: Yes, absolutely. It's a direct correlation and they're saying as much, [00:17:30] and they're specifically saying, we don't want to have martyrs within the prison system because that is what their goal is to prevent. Any incarcerated black person during this time period. And the period I look at is the, the fifties through, I would say really to like the two thousands.

[00:17:48] Dr. Brittany Friedman: But I, I pay most of my attention at the, in the fifties season seventies. And, you know, they, they're worried because, uh, there is this growing [00:18:00] movement and a synergy between the resistance outside and the black freedom movement on the outside and resistance on the inside. And that's where they don't want to create martyrs.

[00:18:10] Dr. Brittany Friedman: They don't want to have a, a, a, you know, someone who is akin to Mar to Malcolm X, which we know the prisons did have, right? They did have, uh, within, and there is coordination happening because prisons are porous and, and the prison officials know this, and that is why they are [00:18:30] going to great lengths to prevent.

[00:18:33] Dr. Brittany Friedman: Uh, knowledge about what they're actually doing and how they're torturing people. And it's why I, I talk about how clandestine control and the hidden nature of control is so important for us to focus on. Because this quote is doing so much. It's also, it's showing evidence as well of, of secrecy, of like intentionally hiding what you're doing so that the public [00:19:00] won't be upset, so that incarcerated people won't have a person to look to, to, you know, be upset because of the violence against them.

[00:19:09] Dr. Brittany Friedman: And we know that that failed because unfortunately, several, um, self-identified black militants were murdered by the Department of Corrections. So it,

[00:19:21] Bruce Anthony: it's in secrecy, but it's also kind of brazen as well, right? If they're, if they are writing down memos that are crossing back and forth between [00:19:30] officials in different states.

[00:19:32] Bruce Anthony: It is, it is. They are doing this and, and they don't care about being caught because what? There's no repercussions for what they're doing.

[00:19:42] Dr. Brittany Friedman: There's yeah, there's no, there's no re repercussions. It's why our, I mean, many people point to how law enforcement outside are incredibly protected by police unions and by the courts, but I would argue it really is correctional [00:20:00] officers and prisons and prison officials that are the most protected arm of the criminal justice system by, by courts, by politicians.

[00:20:10] Dr. Brittany Friedman: Um, attorney generals in every state, you know, the Attorney General, one of their chief positions is to defend departments of corrections against lawsuits. Like, and most people may not, may, may or may not know that unless you've been involved in a suit or like trying to bring this, but it is [00:20:30] like to have, you know, the, the state, the, it's one of the highest attorneys or the highest attorney attorney protecting them.

[00:20:37] Dr. Brittany Friedman: Um, so it, it's incredibly difficult to get information out. And what I was able to access was spread across various archives. But again, it's archival material. If you try to FOIA a Department of Corrections now many times, like they're, they're just not subject to FOIA in the same [00:21:00] way as other government agencies because they will claim it's a, it's a matter of public safety.

[00:21:06] Dr. Brittany Friedman: If they give you documents and it's not, no, it's a matter of you don't want, you are worried about people rising up like rebelling if they get the information in the foia. I think that's what the code word for public safety. It's like we don't want protests. We don't want riots. So it's a matter of public safety if we release these FOIA documents [00:21:30] to you about what's happening right now.

[00:21:32] Bruce Anthony: Hmm.  

[00:21:41] Bruce Anthony: Well, speaking of riots, there was a major one in 2007 and in VARs evolved a large number of black and Hispanic inmates, um, that showed that there was a powerful indicator of deep racial divides within the prison system. How do you interpret this event in the [00:22:00] context of the long history of the racialized control of American prisons?

[00:22:06] Dr. Brittany Friedman: Since prisons, uh, of their, since the inception of prisons in the 20th century, like in their contemporary reform, correctional officers have engaged in divisive racial tactics, including setting up people to be in gladiator fights that are in different racial, because then that creates vendettas, right?

[00:22:27] Dr. Brittany Friedman: Like that, that creates a [00:22:30] vendetta that, wait

[00:22:31] Bruce Anthony: a minute, hold on. You telling me that they got gladiator prison fights and they've got black versus Hispanic and white versus black and Hispanic versus white and all that stuff?

[00:22:45] Dr. Brittany Friedman: Yes. Many of these big riots, that's how they start. It's because officers set them up into fights and then the fight takes place and then a riot breaks out.

[00:22:57] Dr. Brittany Friedman: And, but all you see on the news is like [00:23:00] race riot. It's like, no, it's not. No, no. Historically, when there's been a race riot, it, it, if you trace it back, you can trace it to officers and their corruption and setting up people to fight each other because it's a very effective tool of social control, especially in an an enclosed cage environment.

[00:23:23] Dr. Brittany Friedman: Like imagine having a vendetta against another person and you're like, enclosed [00:23:30] and, and there's cages everywhere, right? That we think about vendettas that happened in the street like this, this cycle is growing and it builds and builds. An officer know that because it has worked time and again, and there's so many times in my book where I am showing, you know, uh.

[00:23:50] Dr. Brittany Friedman: Especially black leaders are quite effective at trying to organize people across racial boundaries for this reason because they know that if they are [00:24:00] able to organize people, these setups are less effective because they're building par. And, but that's right when, that's when the officers strike, anytime you see like peace accords historically in prisons in the United States that have that, typically it's incarcerated black people that are at the forefront of these peace talks.

[00:24:20] Dr. Brittany Friedman: Um, officers, they use their tactic of the gladiator fights and you know, it is real problem. I, I, a student of [00:24:30] mine actually sent me today, there's a headline out I, I need to read into it, but the headline she sent me is that gladiator fights. There's allegations of gladiator fights happening at juvenile detention facilities.

[00:24:45] Dr. Brittany Friedman: And it's, it's a headline from the Washington Post, and that officers, of course, are the ones setting up the fights, and usually, at least in California, they place bets on them. That's been one of the main allegations. Like, they're like literally [00:25:00] sitting there placing bets, um, on people's lives. And, and I, I talk about that, uh, toward the end of Cartro Apartheid because someone I interviewed, he survived a gladiator fight.

[00:25:11] Dr. Brittany Friedman: He survived a setup. So it's like, it's, it is a, um, cinematic problem. It's not a one-off issue.

[00:25:20] Bruce Anthony: Wow. Uh, a prison fight club being instituted by the guards. Wow. Yep. To create [00:25:30] racial division. So in. In your studies, you said San Quentin was like this point of where all these organizations grew. Can you tell me what those organizations were and, and what racial lines it's attached to each organization?

[00:25:48] Dr. Brittany Friedman: Yeah, absolutely. Um, and I think I'll kind of start as, as to like why San Quin two. You know, San Quintin has like a very dark kind of eve history, which [00:26:00] I, I trace in chapter two called Adjusting Problem Inmates because that's what they argued that they were doing in this Orwellian way. They're like, we're readjusting people.

[00:26:10] Dr. Brittany Friedman: But what they meant was, for instance, the chief surgeon of, of San Quentin from 1913 to 1951, he did over 10,000 experiments on incarcerated men under the guise of adjusting them. Fixing them, uh, and claiming that they were [00:26:30] behavioral problems and that he was going to use his eugenics meats, you know, psychiatric science to fix them.

[00:26:39] Dr. Brittany Friedman: And so this is why when we talk about the formation of these groups, that comes within like a decade later. It's like this is the environment that incarcerated men were surviving within. So if we think in a functionalist perspective, it's like, yeah, it makes sense that you would form an organization, and especially during that particular [00:27:00] time in American history, that your natural allies would be your racial, your racial group.

[00:27:05] Dr. Brittany Friedman: Um, when we're talking about, you know, the fifties and sixties, and so he retire in 1951 and then a couple years later, prison officials, um, are like, well, I. We need to create a committee, uh, for the treatment of intensive problem cases. And it really, you know, it transforms this notion of who is a behavioral problem, who needs to be isolated [00:27:30] and treated and fixed, and who the, who is, are people who are black, who are suspected of being aligned with the Civil Rights Movement at the time, or aligned with the Black Freedom Movement.

[00:27:43] Dr. Brittany Friedman: It could be, you could, you could even just have like, say your loved one gave you a newspaper that's like, has a speech maybe for like an African American newspaper. That's enough to get you sent to the adjustment Center, which is, ends up being what they create once the. [00:28:00] This basically eugenic surgeon retires, they create adjustment centers, um, in his place.

[00:28:06] Dr. Brittany Friedman: And so as that's going on, that, that insanity right from the state is happening in the background, incarcerated black people are being disappeared into these adjustment centers. They were removing people of other racial groups, but, but specifically really targeting the black population and political activity.

[00:28:27] Dr. Brittany Friedman: Um, at the same time, [00:28:30] officers are very concerned because the, the black population is increasing in numbers. Um, before we get to like mass incarceration, the black population was already increasing in California like significantly

[00:28:42] Bruce Anthony: mm-hmm. During this

[00:28:43] Dr. Brittany Friedman: time period. And so they start to, you know, uh, plot these setups, um, these setups of incarcerated black people where they would put them on the yard with a bunch of Nazis.[00:29:00]

[00:29:00] Dr. Brittany Friedman: Because this is like pre Aryan Brotherhood, which forms in the mid sixties. They consolidate, but this is pre Ian Brotherhood and put them on the yard with a bun, with a big group of Nazis and, and a amount of people who identify as Chicano and just let them be annihilated. And then sometimes shoot, because people are fighting at this time.

[00:29:20] Dr. Brittany Friedman: You have legally they had the right to shoot at them, but they would shoot only at the black people. And that's how you get murders because they, they're, [00:29:30] that's, and that's what I mean when I say there's a setup and then a murder. It's, it's taking place in that way. That's the pattern or the playbook. And so, um, as this is going on, the Aryan bro, what becomes the Aryan Brotherhood grows stronger because they are aligned in this way with corrupt correctional officers and prison officials are turning a blind eye to this.

[00:29:52] Dr. Brittany Friedman: So they're getting stronger and stronger politically. Economically through smuggling. And the only way you smuggle [00:30:00] things in is through officers. Like, that's the only way that you really, truly get enough bulk that if you're going to start mass selling is through officers. Um, even though they try to make it seem like it's otherwise, like it's loved ones, it's officers.

[00:30:13] Dr. Brittany Friedman: So, um, they formalized themselves into the Aryan Brotherhood in the mid sixties, San Quentin, you know, in this, in this environment. And, uh, you know, the Mexican mafia ends ends up forming in Tracy, [00:30:30] actually, like in Tracy, a different prison in California, but gains a stronghold in San Quentin because San Quentin is like, it's the main battleground, at least between the racial groups.

[00:30:42] Dr. Brittany Friedman: It's one of the main epicenters. So, uh, the Mexican mafia unites. The southern half of California, uh, for people who are of Mexican, Mexican American, or Chicano descent in a California prison, if they're from the southern half, [00:31:00] they are aligned with the Mexican mafia or otherwise known as Southerners or Sonos is how the term in Spanish here.

[00:31:08] Dr. Brittany Friedman: Um, and they become aligned with the Aryan Brotherhood. It's a very, you know, it becomes like a very natural alliance of the time because the anti-black racism is so high. And also because officers are very, they're, they're, they're not too dumb, right? Like they're, they understand basic [00:31:30] politics of war that like, it's easier to annihilate your enemy if you make allies with other groups that hate your enemy.

[00:31:39] Dr. Brittany Friedman: It's like an age old. Um, and so this is, I am arguing that this is a, this, this entire scene that I have set from the, the basically like eugenics surgeon leading to, you know, the, the formation of, of groups in the wake of these setups and fights. This is why it's, [00:32:00] this is why California, when we're talking about, um, the emergence of the Mexican mafia, Arian Brotherhood, and then the Black Illa family, which is the consolidation for incarcerated black people who are, you know, basically putting their, their cliques together in one organization.

[00:32:20] Dr. Brittany Friedman: Because in the words of a co-founder I interviewed, he said, and I'm paraphrasing, you know, he used the word incumbent. I remember that verbatim. He's like, [00:32:30] it was incumbent upon us. To organize ourselves in the face of these attacks by the prison administration and then also from other inmates. And the other inmates he's talking about the, those who were allied with the white supremacist or the Mexican mafia.

[00:32:47] Bruce Anthony: Wow. Okay. So I have a couple of different follow up questions. One, it seems like the prison system is absolutely mimicking what's going on in America during that time. 'cause you had the FBI and COINTEL Pro, [00:33:00] that Cointel Pro was originally used to fold up the clan. They turned it on black power groups such as the Black Panther Party, uh, the Nation of Islam, things of that nature.

[00:33:11] Bruce Anthony: So it seems like the prison system is mimicking real life or not real life, the outside world. Um, would you agree or disagree with that?

[00:33:22] Dr. Brittany Friedman: Yes, a hundred percent. It was actually, um, in 19, I think it's, it's 1958 [00:33:30] is when I was able to find the oldest bulletin that was like first identifying a black militant group for segregation and surveillance, and it was the Nation of Islam.

[00:33:43] Dr. Brittany Friedman: And, and the demo is called, you know, special Procedures for Muslim inmates, and then it's outlining how the Nation of Islam is. They were saying that it wasn't a real religion, that they were anti-white, that they, that they were actually racist against white people. So it's like all of [00:34:00] the ang that we are hearing right now in society.

[00:34:04] Dr. Brittany Friedman: That is attacking DEI, that's attacking people who are simply stating just facts, truths about race, how it functions in America. Um, the same exact thing was happening to incarcerated black people. If they were found to be a member of a group that was promoting anti-white, that's what it was called, anti-white racist ideology.

[00:34:26] Dr. Brittany Friedman: And then they were, they were, they were [00:34:30] surveilled. It would fold them in their file if they were ever released, released. That was a key part as all them into society. And, uh, and while during their incarceration, they would be removed and isolated into solitary cells in adjustment centers. And so I, I think there's a parallels to, to today that are obvious, but then a key point is, well, what is the current administration gearing up to do?

[00:34:55] Dr. Brittany Friedman: Because if the first step is to. Is to [00:35:00] call ev all of our major social movement gains, reverse racism against white people. Then the next step, at least according to my book, is to expand the surveillance infrastructure, begin spying on populations of color. And then the final step is removal and containment.

[00:35:17] Dr. Brittany Friedman: And that's what my book shows is the, the historical pattern. So it is, it's like when I'm watching it happening, I'm like, okay, you know, history does repeat itself and so we, we got a, as the [00:35:30] original use of stay woke, that's actually what it means. And I'm forgetting who he was. I forget. I wish I had his name off the top of my head.

[00:35:37] Dr. Brittany Friedman: Do you remember his name? The, the man who said stay woke like that we're, that's trace back. It's like, this is what he was talking about. He was talking about paying attention when things start to shift and like you might be subjected to state violence. And he was just like, stay woke. That's like where the quote comes from.

[00:35:53] Bruce Anthony: Originally, I, I know it wasn't, I know Childish Gambino used it, but I know it was, he wasn't the original quote. [00:36:00]

[00:36:00] Dr. Brittany Friedman: Yes. It's like from in the day, like it's like our, it's like from our elders. That's where that, and that's what he was talking about. He's talking about what we're seeing now.

[00:36:10] Bruce Anthony: Yeah. I had that debate with somebody earlier this week about woke and what the definition was and they're like, well, that's not what it means.

[00:36:18] Bruce Anthony: I'm like, no, that's exactly what it means. But, so I'm curious, Chicano Mex Mexican mafia, if it had not been for the interference [00:36:30] of prison officials and white supremacist groups like the Arian Brotherhood, or before they were the Aryan Brotherhood Nazis, would there been conflict between the black prisoners and the Hispanic prisoners in the prison if it wasn't for this outside interference?

[00:36:48] Dr. Brittany Friedman: I don't think there would be. And the re and there, the evidence for that is one, historically on the outside in California, um, law enforcement and white civilians [00:37:00] have been in their, like white supremacists actions have been very influential in sowing division between black and brown neighborhoods. Like, that's, that's something that's like left out when you see on the news, it's like, oh, there's a fighting in black and brown neighborhoods in la.

[00:37:15] Dr. Brittany Friedman: And it's like, but historically, how did the fighting, the fighting start? Historically, it started because. White supremacist civilians who were backed by the LAPD and local police would go [00:37:30] into black and brown neighborhoods and literally beat the, I don't know if IE curse, I'll say beat the crap out of and assault, um, people of Mexican descent and, and people that were African American in their communities and create infighting, like create fights.

[00:37:45] Dr. Brittany Friedman: That's where it starts. Same thing in California. Prisons the same. It's, it's, it was mirroring. 'cause it's the same time period too, when all of these beefs are starting between neighborhoods on the outside. A lot of these beefs are also getting [00:38:00] carried from the prison into the, into it. So because of the, the, what the, the Aryan Brotherhood and Officers have done in, in fueling a racial divide between.

[00:38:12] Dr. Brittany Friedman: Two big populations that you might think potentially could be aligned instead. You know, when people get out, it's like, they're, they remember, no, I'm, I'm anti-black because I'm on this side. And it carries into the beefs because in reality, you know, uh, as things [00:38:30] progress historically, many of many groups are actually running the street.

[00:38:34] Dr. Brittany Friedman: Like things change here and there like power changes hands. But for several years and decades, prisons are running the the street. So what, so this what the Department of Corrections has kicked off. They are the real cause. They're the real cause of what we see in the prison and what we see in neighborhoods.

[00:38:54] Dr. Brittany Friedman: And so that's, that's something that I, I argue also like when we have conversations about reparations [00:39:00] in mass incarceration and battle slavery and Jim Crow in the us. Like we need to include this conversation about what prison officials and officers have done in creating racial vendettas and racial warfare for decades in prisons.

[00:39:17] Dr. Brittany Friedman: That we need reparations for that too, because that has spilled over into our community for decades.

[00:39:23] Bruce Anthony: Wow. Wow. Okay. So for your book and for your research, you interviewed a lot of [00:39:30] former gang members. Um, what personal stories or insights helped you understand the impact of these oppressive systems on both individuals and communities involved?

[00:39:40] Bruce Anthony: Like you kind of hinted to it that these beefs that are starting in prison are carrying out to the streets and that's kind of the reason why we are having these racial wars. I don't know too much about California, but I know in Chicago, big, big problem on the streets [00:40:00] with black and brown just going to war.

[00:40:03] Bruce Anthony: And it starts with the Mexican mafia infiltrating the drug trade in. Chicago. And so, yeah. So what were some of these stories or insights that these former gang members told you that kind of just stuck with you?

[00:40:21] Dr. Brittany Friedman: Well, something I will say first about Chicago too, it's like we don't ever hear about the invisible hand [00:40:30] of the Irish mob and the fact that for years, so this is what I mean about how there's, in my book, there's key historical patterns that I argue we see across in the United States.

[00:40:43] Dr. Brittany Friedman: And so in, in Chicago, um, for entry, the Irish mob and Chicago, the white members of the Chicago PD have been heavily aligned.

[00:40:56] Bruce Anthony: Mm.

[00:40:57] Dr. Brittany Friedman: And that like [00:41:00] secret, not so secret, but I, I'll just say secret, well kept. You know, under the Radar alliance has been crucial for Chicago politics. It has been crucial for funding of particular, like public works in Chicago, and it is crucial to the drug trade in Chicago because if yet, who really runs the drug trade in Chicago, the Irish mob actually ran a considerable size of the drug trade with the assistance of Chicago pd.

[00:41:28] Dr. Brittany Friedman: But the only zone, oh, there's [00:41:30] infighting. It's like, well, but if you look at the bigger picture, that's why I am very, I, I'm always interested in like zooming out, just zoom out, kind of take the perspective of like a bird, like zoom out, look and then think about, okay, who benefits from what I'm looking at?

[00:41:46] Dr. Brittany Friedman: Well, in Chicago, who benefits when there's infighting between the, the different street groups of color? So same thing, you know, and, and it's like some people are like, you shouldn't [00:42:00] say that out loud. I'm like, that's what I mean. Like I've been told that my entire life. You should not say that out loud, but it's very, I just think to myself, but it's very obvious, like, doesn't it bother you to just like, see that and then, and then, and then like move forward?

[00:42:13] Dr. Brittany Friedman: Like you didn't see it.

[00:42:15] Bruce Anthony: Some people aren't bothered because, and we'll get into that later, but some people aren't bothered because it doesn't really affect them. A lot of people, when it doesn't affect them, they say, yeah, you know, what's the difference? But the difference is, is destroying communities and then it actually [00:42:30] does affect you. 

[00:42:37] Bruce Anthony: So it, was there any story from these former gang members? You talk about the one incumbent, it was incumbent upon them to join together. Were there any other stories like that, that really you just, it either touched your heart or broke your heart or. Created an elicited an emotion that maybe you didn't know that you would feel [00:43:00] during this process?

[00:43:02] Dr. Brittany Friedman: You know, I think my interview with Andrew, which is in chapter three, and, uh, in that chapter I call it white Above all that interview, kind of, it shook me ish me, when I first interviewed him. We interviewed over the course of a few days, um, because it, I, a lot of my interviews are very long like that. Um, but you know, Andrew's story was interesting, so he actually.

[00:43:26] Dr. Brittany Friedman: He, he grew up, um, in his childhood in [00:43:30] Chicago, he was white. He identified as like a poor white, he said he was working class and he had friends across like racial and ethnic groups. And then his family splits up and then they, they moved to California. So there's again, this story of my migration. Like many people in my, my book, they, they came with their families, like a lot of people that moved to California in these this time period.

[00:43:52] Dr. Brittany Friedman: And, you know, ang for after a, a series of events, he ends up incarcerated. And the story that he told me [00:44:00] in particular about what solidified for him that, that joining a white supremacist group and being in, having that like Nazi affiliation and he had all the tattoos all over his arms and hands when we were interviewing was.

[00:44:18] Dr. Brittany Friedman: He, he witnessed a horrific setup that happened, um, where a young man who grew up in a black neighborhood, he just, when [00:44:30] he was incarcerated, he thought, you know, he's naturally, he was gravitated, he gravitated toward the black population and was a huge no-no for every, everything that we have described, you know, 'cause this is, it's not just a California story.

[00:44:44] Dr. Brittany Friedman: This is also, this is a west coast. This is. Actually, that's not even true. This is really, it's an American story. 'cause I can, if we had time, I'd go into so many other examples of what I'm about to say right now across like other state prison systems. So [00:45:00] basically this young man that Andrew sees, he's like, oh, like he had a bad feeling.

[00:45:05] Dr. Brittany Friedman: He's like, oh, this is not gonna end well for him. Like somebody should tell him, you know? And you, we kind of see these scenes in movies, right? When watch movies about prisons where there's like people who take it upon themselves to kind of school someone.

[00:45:19] Bruce Anthony: Yeah. And

[00:45:19] Dr. Brittany Friedman: try to tell them like the way of, uh, the politics.

[00:45:23] Dr. Brittany Friedman: And so similarly, Andrew describes. Someone tries to tell the young man and [00:45:30] he's just like, no, it's cool. Like, these are, I'm just like, I'm just talking. I'm not, I'm not doing anything. Which there's certain things you're not supposed to, like, you're not supposed to take food from another racial group you're not supposed to take, like, things like that.

[00:45:42] Dr. Brittany Friedman: Very strict. So, um, basically long story short, this young man gets like brutally assaulted because officers set him up to be brutally assaulted to make an example of him, um, for crossing the racial line. [00:46:00] And it, it tells you two things. One, it tells you that people, it's not just that people are coming in with, with racist attitudes and then they're gravitating towards white supremacist groups.

[00:46:11] Dr. Brittany Friedman: It tells you that the officers are taking an active role in, in policing people of their own racial group who do not fall in line. Hmm. And so, Andrew, as. As I'm interviewing him, you know, he sends up, he's pacing because he was like [00:46:30] reliving it as we were talking, and I had to do different strategies to like bring the energy down, um, because I could, he was reliving it and he just kept saying, he's like, I never wanted that to happen to me.

[00:46:40] Dr. Brittany Friedman: Never wanted that to happen to me, never wanted that to happen to me. He's like, he's like saying, you know, when I, when I ended up in Pelican Bay, which is the supermax year, um, where you're in your cell 20 today, he's like, I couldn't even, I couldn't sleep. I used to hear his cries at night. Hmm. I, and that was like years later.[00:47:00]

[00:47:00] Dr. Brittany Friedman: And so that just, it tells you like the, the level of how like trauma is embodied and how white supremacy, like, you know, and racist intent. There isn't an embodied nature to it where it's through experience that people come to see and accept a particular ideology as true. Because over time he was like, you know, over time I came to believe it was true that we were [00:47:30] superior, is what he told me.

[00:47:30] Dr. Brittany Friedman: We were superior. It was us versus them. Because I saw not just that, like I saw the, the fights that would happen between, and then I participate in the fights. And so it's very much, I liken it to how someone describes war, right? Like someone who's a veteran and describe bodied, um, versus them that you take on when you're free fighting someone on the basis of them being different than you.

[00:47:59] Dr. Brittany Friedman: [00:48:00] It's like, it, it, it stays with you and you feel you need. Because what Andrew told me when, you know, the end of our interview, I asked him, I said, we see you now. You're volunteering like I see behind you. Like all those men behind you. There are different racial and ethnic groups. Some of them were aligned with groups.

[00:48:20] Dr. Brittany Friedman: That if you were inside, you wouldn't be allowed to stand next to them. And if you got into it, you would try to kill each other on site. [00:48:30] And he said it just it, I'll never forget what he said. He was like, well, out here we don't need it. And I was like, it's like, it was like just a simple phrase. It was like when I saw the prejudicial memo of like, we don't wanna create martyrs.

[00:48:43] Dr. Brittany Friedman: Like there's these key moments in writing my book when the puzzle piece, the missing piece would just be added. And when Andrew said to me, I'm like, yeah, that's what it is. It's like, that's that. That's just, that's it. It [00:49:00] is. It's created intentionally.

[00:49:04] Bruce Anthony: And that's the world that they have to live in in order to survive.

[00:49:07] Bruce Anthony: Mm-hmm. Yes. Um, so with Andrew now, and during that interview, 'cause you said during the process of being incarcerated, he started to believe it. And now he's able to just be around people from different walks of life and, and not immediately get into it because he doesn't have to. Does that mean that his [00:49:30] ideology changed back to what he was before going into prison?

[00:49:34] Bruce Anthony: Or does he still hold some of these beliefs that he is a part of the superior race?

[00:49:41] Dr. Brittany Friedman: So, for Andrew, you know, I, I dobel some people obvious, like some people definitely when they are, when they get out of prison, they do bring with them their white supremacist ideology and it just continues on, you know, 'cause there's what's happening in the prisons, it spills onto the street and it's a [00:50:00] cycle.

[00:50:00] Dr. Brittany Friedman: But with Andrew, what I found interesting is that during the later part of his incarceration, he got involved with an organization for. Lifers and the organization on the outside was, you know, run by, uh, not for, not formerly incarcerated people, but in community with formerly incarcerated people that had served life sentences and that were released for various reasons.

[00:50:26] Dr. Brittany Friedman: Um, like in terms of having their sentences commuted, like all these different things that [00:50:30] happened. So basically he started to receive letters from men or part of this program on the outside that, that understood his experience, that we're trying to help him in terms of like, this is what you need to do to prepare.

[00:50:48] Dr. Brittany Friedman: Like this is how, like, helping him with this case. Helping him with various things that, you know, are, are a, do or die for you when you are in a cage. Um, and you have a life sentence. So [00:51:00] he was saying, he's like, you know, they didn't have to help me. They didn't have to help me. Like, he's like pointing back to someone.

[00:51:07] Dr. Brittany Friedman: He's like, he was like, when he was on the street and when he was inside, like he was a blood, like, they're like a sworn enemy of us. But he didn't have to help me. He helped me figure out, you know, if I get out, where am I gonna live? Where am I gonna go? Like, what job? And he's like, they gave me a job. And he's like, they're my brothers now.

[00:51:28] Dr. Brittany Friedman: And in saying that, [00:51:30] he said it again. He is like, I realize, I like, we don't need it out here. Like all that stuff. Like, he's called it stuff, he's like, that's like the prison, like that's like your pri basically your prison jacket. It's like that's what you're, because you have to, and you and you do legitimately come to.

[00:51:47] Dr. Brittany Friedman: Over time, you know, how could you not? Because we're embodied human beings. So, but, um, he was like, they helped me. They're my brothers. And that's what I do now. Like, that's the job they gave [00:52:00] me when I got out. My job is I, I help other men who are inside that have life sentences and I, we, I write them letters.

[00:52:08] Dr. Brittany Friedman: I help, help with like programming. So it just, it was the, the power of community really. I think in Andrew's case, the power of community, of being a community with men who shared his life experience, even though they were on other sides of the, of the battle.

[00:52:26] Bruce Anthony: Mm-hmm. It

[00:52:27] Dr. Brittany Friedman: was, there was something very healing about, [00:52:30] came together around this notion that they were once a part of a prisoner class.

[00:52:35] Dr. Brittany Friedman: Like they were all prisoners first and foremost. And that's quite frankly what the Black Guerrilla family, as I show in my book, that's what they were trying to organize for. That's why they became criminalized as a gang. But they were a social movement organization, and that's what I show. It's like they formed as a social movement organization to protect black people from all of these setups, [00:53:00] from isolation, from everything that the, the, uh, administration was doing.

[00:53:06] Dr. Brittany Friedman: And they also were very successful in organized racial boundaries. And as I said earlier, every time they, they, they were able to evoke this like prayer consciousness amongst people. Then that's when officers would a gladiator fight. That's, and, and you're forced, right? You have to do the fight or you will get beat to a by the officers if you don't fight.[00:53:30]

[00:53:30] Dr. Brittany Friedman: Or they might shoot at you and say, oh, they were fighting, so they were fighting on the yard. So we shot, um, you know, so. That's, that's kind of the through line in my book, through Andrew's awakening and through what incarcerated black people had been fighting for and, and arguably what made them the most dangerous.

[00:53:53] Dr. Brittany Friedman: It wasn't just that they were trying to protect themselves, it's that they were trying to get the racial groups to see what [00:54:00] was happening and to see that the, the prison officials were them against each other and, and that's what made them dangerous.

[00:54:09] Bruce Anthony: So Andrew makes this transformation because even though they're on the inside and they're against each other, unfortunately they're part of this brotherhood fraternity of being incarcerated.

[00:54:25] Bruce Anthony: How do we get people that are listening and watching [00:54:30] that were turned off? 'cause we said white supremacy like 75,000 times. To emphasize that's what's going on in these prisons, or they're turned off by the fact that we're talking about what quote unquote they would label as criminals. What can we do to reach these people, to make them care, to make them stop, listen, absorb what you're [00:55:00] saying and really try to go about to make change.

[00:55:06] Dr. Brittany Friedman: What I would say is, the first thing I would say is that, well, if law enforcement is on the right side of history, why did they make it so difficult for us to access information that should be publicly available?

[00:55:24] Dr. Brittany Friedman: That's like, I feel like that's kind of like me tossing a softball. That's like a nice [00:55:30] one. Like that's, let's just like start with this very basic premise and I. That, you know, as I'm an educator, right? So when I, when I try to, I ask people, even the students as I'm teaching, um, when I teach about prisons, I ask students questions that are very simple.

[00:55:50] Dr. Brittany Friedman: Get them to do the critical thinking, to like, like think through, think through it for themselves. This way I'm not like [00:56:00] preaching and I'm not, not embodying the same sort of controlling energy that I'm describing. Because for me, it's like I do truly believe in freedom and I, I have hope that when people really think for themselves.

[00:56:17] Dr. Brittany Friedman: Like how Andrew did, right. You see for yourself and you think through it for yourself. You're like, oh, that's like, that's like all, can I say a curse word?

[00:56:27] Bruce Anthony: Yeah.

[00:56:28] Dr. Brittany Friedman: So like, that's all [00:56:30] bullshit. Mm-hmm. Like, it's bullshit. You know what I mean? And so I, I think, um, it's why being able to, if people are re are able to talk, um, have conversations with people because then they start to break down their own, they realize that they're just in like a big illusion.

[00:56:51] Dr. Brittany Friedman: And, and that's how I approach things is, you know, if somebody comes at me all like, well, you said this, this, and this and that, these are just violent criminals, [00:57:00] this and that. And then I would say, well, what do you think about the fact that like, you know, there have been this many officer setups. Where the officers are setting people up to be raped or, or to be killed.

[00:57:15] Dr. Brittany Friedman: Do you think that that meets the definition of, of a violent criminal? And usually people will say, well, yeah, but it's like one-offs. And then I'll say, but, but what if I were to tell you that it's actually, um, so bad that, um, the Department of [00:57:30] Corrections has been sued more than once by brave families who've lost loved ones because of it.

[00:57:36] Dr. Brittany Friedman: It's like just slowly breaking it down. People realize, like, and then I, I try to say things like, well, don't you want to be free? Like, don't you want your mind to be free? You say you believe in like Freedom America, like, but don't you want your mind to be free or do you want to be just like plugged into some bullshit?

[00:57:57] Dr. Brittany Friedman: Like, I, like I just try to [00:58:00] talk to people and then if they don't wanna hear me, I'm like, okay, go be gone. Stay asleep. I.

[00:58:07] Bruce Anthony: Bye. Not go be gone. Not go be gone. Be

[00:58:10] Dr. Brittany Friedman: gone. I talked to you. I tried. I can tell that you're still asleep, like in the matrix. Like you still, you took that by. Okay, good. And I'm over here with Morpheus here.

[00:58:25] Dr. Brittany Friedman: You're going over there and just go get, go get plugged right back in. [00:58:30] That's cool because I feel like you, we, that's how we also protect peace. You do what you can. Mm-hmm. You can't force people. People, I think Andrew shows that people have to come to the conclusion for themselves. They, people have to free themselves in, in sense of like, like people who are racist.

[00:58:48] Dr. Brittany Friedman: Like they have to free their own mind from that shit.

[00:58:51] Bruce Anthony: Mm-hmm. That's

[00:58:52] Dr. Brittany Friedman: what I like. They have to free themselves. We can't do it for them.

[00:58:58] Bruce Anthony: For your mind and the rest will follow. That's [00:59:00] what En Vogue said. Um,

[00:59:05] Bruce Anthony: okay. Dr. Brit, what changes do you believe are essential for dismantling these oppressive systems and what State Steps can policy makers and activists take to create a more just and equitable institutions?

[00:59:20] Dr. Brittany Friedman: The first thing is we have to abolish the Prison Litigation Reform Act, and a lot of people don't know what it is.

[00:59:27] Dr. Brittany Friedman: And that's on purpose? [00:59:30] Yeah, it's on purpose because, um, the Prison Litigation Reform Act, basically, it came about in 1996 at the federal level, and that law made it so that incarceration had to exhaust the Prison Grievance s system in their institution and within the Department of Corrections before they could move forward.

[00:59:53] Dr. Brittany Friedman: And sue. For all of the heinous things that I have described and more. And what [01:00:00] that did is if you look at a map of it, I'm gonna pull it up for myself. So as soon, so leading up to that passing, the reason this was passed is because the prisoners' rights movement, which really sees its heyday from like 1970 to about like, you know, the, the early nineties.

[01:00:23] Dr. Brittany Friedman: Um. It was, it was gaining traction and they were having success. Like [01:00:30] courts were on some key areas ruling in favor of incarcerated people because the evidence was just so strong. Mm-hmm. What this law did is it slammed the courtroom door as like prison policy calls it. If you look at prison policy as an amazing, and it's free to access infographic, which shows like it shows, the lawsuits are like rising, rising, rising, and then when that law happens, it just completely goes down.

[01:00:57] Dr. Brittany Friedman: So it just slammed the door and made it so that, so [01:01:00] people have to ask their abuser and go through their abuser's policies before they can try to say, like, go before a court and say, this is what the Department of Actions did to me. And I think a lot, I think. It's, it's some public doesn't generally know about, like, like prisoners rights.

[01:01:19] Dr. Brittany Friedman: Advocates obviously know 'cause it slammed the door on their lawsuits. Um, and, and, um, but it is, it was just such an effective tool and it's at the [01:01:30] federal level. And, and I think that if that's abolished, then that opens back the door for the courts to hear these cases because, um, you know, law enforcement doesn't reform itself.

[01:01:45] Dr. Brittany Friedman: We see that with police officers on the outside. Anytime we have big changes, it's because of some of. Egregious action or murder. And then there's a successful lawsuit and there's like, there's force, there's for [01:02:00] change also at, at the, you know, the, the circuit court level. That is something that this prevents for incarcerated people who are victims of law enforcement, violence on the inside.

[01:02:11] Dr. Brittany Friedman: And so it's like, if we are really champions for police violence, like we have to get that abolished. Everybody should know about that law. Everybody should know law exists. And that would be, that's my, that's my like, you know, hill that I climb up on and I'm standing on top of it and I'm like, [01:02:30]

[01:02:30] Bruce Anthony: abolish this policy,

[01:02:32] Dr. Brittany Friedman: aish this policy.

[01:02:33] Bruce Anthony: And why, and why, why did they institute this law, this policy? Because,

[01:02:38] Dr. Brittany Friedman: because

[01:02:40] Bruce Anthony: there was just too many lawsuits.

[01:02:41] Dr. Brittany Friedman: They were, they were just getting flooded, incarcerated People were flooding the court system with lawsuits and winning because they, they able to get the evidence like out to their attorneys because that's something that, you know, in my book, I show how draconian the system is and how successful it [01:03:00] is at silencing people.

[01:03:01] Dr. Brittany Friedman: But one thing that you still have access, even if you're in solitary, is your attorney. Like you could still. And so if you can get things out to your attorney, you could still get, uh, get your case bef your attorney can get your case before a judge and to get things moving. And this, this has made it incredibly difficult for.

[01:03:22] Dr. Brittany Friedman: Attorneys to do their job on behalf of their clients when there's no other way. How else are you get the prison [01:03:30] system to move. They're not gonna fix themselves.

[01:03:33] Bruce Anthony: No. They don't

[01:03:34] Dr. Brittany Friedman: wanna be regulated in the way that they should be. They shouldn't even exist. That's, that's, that's like,

[01:03:42] Bruce Anthony: hold on. You talking about getting rid of the prisons altogether?

[01:03:45] Dr. Brittany Friedman: Well, I think that there's other alternatives, like there's other alternatives for people who, who have caused harm in their communities. We see other alternatives, especially in [01:04:00] other countries in Europe, on how like alternatives to what we think of as prison United States. Mm-hmm. Yeah. It's like we're just so ingrained culturally to think like that's the only way and it's just not true.

[01:04:13] Dr. Brittany Friedman: And is it even effective? Like we even feel safer. No. 'cause crime doesn't go down when the, when our incarceration rate goes up and it, and people don't feel safer. And does the, and does something like if someone did something egregious to a [01:04:30] community or to a person, like when they come out of prison, did, were they rehabilitated like that?

[01:04:36] Dr. Brittany Friedman: Or, or did they suffer? All of these extreme abuses that I'm documenting, which literally just like destroys people. So then where are, what are we left with? So, yes, I think, you know, as. As our prisons stand in the United States, they shouldn't exist. They don't, they're not self-justifying. We have to do something different.

[01:04:59] Dr. Brittany Friedman: [01:05:00] And you know, I stand by that. 'cause there's proven evidence. People have been for the past several years studying alternatives that are successful. It's just our prisons make too many companies so much money. They make state governments, um, money through different types of fees and fines that in our economic system, there's no incentive to get rid of them.

[01:05:23] Dr. Brittany Friedman: There's no incentive to change to another role for the punishment system.

[01:05:28] Bruce Anthony: Yeah. I, I, [01:05:30] I can't remember if I saw it, whether it's Norway or Sweden, Denmark, one of those places where their prisons were just basically like dorm rooms and they send their violent criminals there, but dorm rooms and. People don't re-offend because you treat them like human beings.

[01:05:52] Bruce Anthony: I always said that you could take a nonviolent person if they go to prison, they have to be violent [01:06:00] in order to survive. Mm-hmm. So you've just taken a person who is nonviolent and turned them into a violent person. So yes, it's a broken system. Dr. Brittany, before I leave you, before you leave us, is there anything that you would like to leave us with, because you've given us so much already, so much to chew on, so much that we learned from this conversation.

[01:06:24] Bruce Anthony: Do you have anything else or any, any parting words For me and [01:06:30] my audience,

[01:06:32] Dr. Brittany Friedman: I would like for people to leave with a sense of hope despite all of the darkness that that described. And the reason I say that is because I. This system of control of Carceral apartheid, it's designed to kill the human spirit and it's designed to thrive off of chaos.

[01:06:52] Dr. Brittany Friedman: And. That's what we're seeing now in our society. And so it is our job to document what we see [01:07:00] and to maintain the evidence of what we see so that it can be transformed, not so we can absorb it and become overwhelmed. 'cause that's what they want. So I would like to leave people with hope and, and think about, look in your own families, in your own communities, or if not, look to history even yourself.

[01:07:20] Dr. Brittany Friedman: We are resilient people. We have survived so much and we continue to organize, create, innovate, build joy in [01:07:30] spite of this. So if we hold that vision, we can continue to create the alternative communities that we've been doing for generations, right? Every generation has people who, who they left the system and they created their own community.

[01:07:44] Dr. Brittany Friedman: I. And I, I think that hope is what we have to maintain because our hope, that's the currency to move us forward. Like true hope, true joy, um, that allows us to resist and then create [01:08:00] alternatives. And that's what I would like for people to be left with and think about what can you do? Like what gift do you have that you can bring?

[01:08:08] Dr. Brittany Friedman: Because we all have gifts, otherwise you wouldn't be born. Everybody's born gifted. That's why I don't like that phrase, gifted and talented or whatever. That's just like some co like European colonialism rhetoric actually. But we won't get into that because I can be long-winded,

[01:08:23] Bruce Anthony: but yeah. 'cause 'cause I don't agree 'cause I am gifted and talented.

[01:08:27] Bruce Anthony: No,

[01:08:28] Dr. Brittany Friedman: but I mean, like, [01:08:30] you know, given the right watering, if you think of human beings like plants, which I, I do 'cause I love plants. So it's like with the right watering, right soil, everybody's gifted. Everyone has a particular gift. And that's what I'd like to leave us with. Like what is your gift right? For you, Bruce?

[01:08:46] Dr. Brittany Friedman: Obviously like you're a hector, um, like an ear and intellectual and you use your voice. I also use my voice and I'm an observer. I think that everybody has something. So [01:09:00]

[01:09:00] Bruce Anthony: I love that. Dr. Brittany, thank you. Thank you. Thank you once again for coming on the show. I, this was a really dope conversation that I know I definitely learned and I know my audience will definitely learn from it as well.

[01:09:13] Bruce Anthony: So thank you for coming on the show and just blessing us with your knowledge.

[01:09:18] Dr. Brittany Friedman: Thank you. I appreciate you, Bruce. And you just, you, you brought out my like joking side even in the midst of this, so thank you.

[01:09:26] Bruce Anthony: Hey, we talk about serious stuff, but you gotta have a laugh every now and [01:09:30] then. Smiles and cries.

[01:09:30] Bruce Anthony: That's what Denzel said in train day,

[01:09:35] Dr. Brittany Friedman: not a LA rescue. I gotta keep. 

[01:09:41] Bruce Anthony: Once again, I want to thank Dr. Brittany for coming on the show. I. And enlightening us with all of her research and her work into how the prison systems are institutionally racist. Some of this stuff I learned about today, uh, it kind of blows my mind. I didn't know they were having gladiator stuff and, [01:10:00] and prisons like, I don't know.

[01:10:01] Bruce Anthony: Most of y'all might be too young to remember, but there were these movies that came out back in the day called Penitentiary. Penitentiary one, two with three where they had like boxing fights and, and fights and stuff like that in prisons. I really think that stuff was real. Come to find out this stuff was real.

[01:10:18] Bruce Anthony: Like it came from somewhere. It wasn't like somebody came, I did let's have gladiators in prison. No, it came from somewhere and it came from real life and that's just absolutely crazy when you think about it, but. Before I [01:10:30] wrap up, I, before I conclude, I just want to extend something out to you guys. I want to ask you guys a question or leave you with a question.

[01:10:38] Bruce Anthony: If our Prism system is intentionally dividing and dehumanizing people, how can we as a society continue to turn a blind eye to it? Today, Dr. Brittany basically broke down everything that was happening and gave us a stark reminder of how these systems are actually broken.

[01:10:59] Bruce Anthony: How they're functioning. [01:11:00] Exactly how they were designed, right? Like they're broken, but absolutely functioning exactly as they were designed. And stories like Andrew give me hope that just because there's division that's being created in these prison systems doesn't matter. Doesn't mean that necessarily it's gonna reach to the outside, but we still gotta find a way.

[01:11:24] Bruce Anthony: To fix the system so that these divisions aren't created in the first place. [01:11:30] Because as Dr. Brittany pointed out, the streets follow prison. So what's going on in prison happened out in the streets? And I mean, anybody that's grown up in any project or any rough area, trailer homes, whatever they have, any poor area, you know.

[01:11:48] Bruce Anthony: What's happening in prison's going to happen in the street? There's a whole television show based on this. Uh, the, the Mayor of Kingstown watch that show. What happens in prison determines what's happening in the street. [01:12:00] That's real life. So once again, I pose a question. If you didn't know about this before you know about this, now, what are you gonna do?

[01:12:13] Bruce Anthony: Are you gonna turn a blind eye to everything that's going on? Or are we going to work towards building a society that's rooted in justice and not division, or no longer be rooted in division, that it be rooted in [01:12:30] justice? And let's remember, prison is a punishment, but you're supposed to be rehabbing who you are as a person.

[01:12:39] Bruce Anthony: You're supposed to be getting better. As the conversation between me and Dr. Brittany alluded to, non-violent people can go into prison and they become violent because you have to adapt to your environment or you get swallowed whole. So are we creating more violent people by sending them into [01:13:00] prison?

[01:13:01] Bruce Anthony: Yeah. And without the programs necessary to help them have a better life when they get out. What do you think? You think that violence just stops there? Once again, what happens in prison goes to the streets. So you might not, you might think that this does not affect you, but it absolutely does. So just think about it.

[01:13:23] Bruce Anthony: Really just think about it. And on that note, I want to thank you for listening. I want to thank you for [01:13:30] watching, and until next time, as always, I'll holler.

[01:13:36] Bruce Anthony (2): Woo. That was a hell of a show. Thank you for rocking with us here on Unsolicited Perspectives with Bruce Anthony. Now, before you go, don't forget to follow, subscribe, like, comment, and share our podcast. Wherever you're listening or watching it to it, pass it along to your friends. If you enjoy it, that means the people that you rock, we'll enjoy it also.

[01:13:56] Bruce Anthony (2): So share the wealth, share the knowledge, share the noise. [01:14:00] For all those people that say, well, I don't have a YouTube. If you have a Gmail account, you have a YouTube. Subscribe to our YouTube channel where you can actually watch our video podcast and YouTube exclusive content. But the real party is on our Patreon page after Hours Uncensored and talking straight ish after Hours.

[01:14:17] Bruce Anthony (2): Uncensored is another show with my sister, and once again, the key word there is uncensored. Those are exclusively on our Patreon page. Jump onto our website@unsolicitedperspective.com for all things us. That's [01:14:30] where you can get all of our audio video, our blogs. And even buy our merch. And if you really feel generous and want to help us out, you can donate on our donations page.

[01:14:39] Bruce Anthony (2): Donations go strictly to improving our software and hardware so we can keep giving you guys good content that you can clearly listen to and that you can clearly see. So any donation would be appreciative. Most importantly, I wanna say thank you, thank you, thank you for listening and watching and supporting us, and I'll catch you [01:15:00] next time.

[01:15:00] Bruce Anthony (2): Audi 5,000 Peace.