Part 2: Conversation on Pornography Addiction and Trauma Work with Joshua Shea

00:06.14
Bruce Anthony
Joshua welcome back. Thank doing part 2 this is a ah 2 parter because I think this is really really important to talk about so we talked about portrayal trauma and we talked about addiction and we talked about your recovery. Can you ah can you discuss the importance of a personalized recovery for individuals that are struggling with addiction and the roles that those people that would call you and say this person is addicted to porn and the roles that they play. They're supported their loved ones in supporting them.

00:36.83
Joshua Shea
Absolutely There are so many modes of recovery you can go to inpatient rehab you can do outpatient work. You can do straight ahead therapy you can do coaching like I offer. There are the 12 step groups. There's plenty of research out there. There are other group sessions especially for 4 men there is there are online 12 steps. There's online forums. There is so many there were so many different ways to recover that. Um. I find the people who are most successful including myself tend to try just about everything at 1 time or another but then have to almost create their own program and have to figure out what's best and what works for them. There are some people who come to me and I only see them 8 or 10 times.

01:23.52
Bruce Anthony
Um, here.

01:31.64
Joshua Shea
And then I've given them what they need from my side of things and they can move on to something else. There are some people who I see have seen hundreds of times who this is a regular piece of their recovery one of the most important things is to let the addict if they are serious.

01:40.26
Bruce Anthony
Are.

01:51.34
Joshua Shea
And if they are committed and if they're not, There's nothing you can really do about it if they are serious if they are committed to let them cast their own path to recovery because everybody is different. The most important thing you mentioned for the people who are supporting is to not dictate.

01:52.69
Bruce Anthony
Right.

02:02.76
Bruce Anthony
Are.

02:11.22
Joshua Shea
How the addict is going to heal and I do get that with a lot of the partners who are dealing with betrayal trauma like oh my god they need to go to 3 meetings a week they need to always be reading a book. They need to be doing this and I said well if that's what would work for you. That's fantastic.

02:28.55
Bruce Anthony
Right.

02:31.16
Joshua Shea
They have to figure out their own way and the best thing that somebody who is trying to support an addict can do is number 1 not outwardly judge about the addiction I understand you may be totally grossed out by what they looked at.

02:43.56
Bruce Anthony
Um, hey.

02:48.59
Joshua Shea
Why they looked at it what they were doing while they were looking at it that's fine but don't cast that upon them. Why would anybody who you judge openly Why would anybody who you put down openly ever. Trust you to share what's happening with them and more importantly than that. You need to create a safe area around these people they need these addicts they need to know that they have your support they need to know they will not be judged by you. They need to know that they can turn to you in the times that aren't going. Well. And share what may be some very uncomfortable truths If you're not up for this. They can find somebody else who can do it but then don't complain about being left in the dark I understand that you are the victim, especially if you're dealing with betrayal trauma. But if you want this person to get Better. You're going to have to handle them with a different set of rules like you do with anybody who is very Ill. You have to handle them a little bit differently. You know if if somebody was in a car accident that was completely their fault.

03:52.37
Bruce Anthony
It is.

03:59.49
Joshua Shea
You're not going to hold back treatment because it was their fault. You are going to treat them and hopefully try to get them better and then if they have to pay some kind of price or they have to you know deal with the law or deal with you putting in some kind of boundaries they can down the road.

04:04.37
Bruce Anthony
Um, right.

04:19.23
Joshua Shea
But at first they need to not be judged and they need to be they need to feel like they're in a safe place if they are going to begin that journey.

04:27.11
Bruce Anthony
So for those people that are being supportive of the person that's either loved 1 or partner whatever connection that they have to the person that's suffering from the addiction they want to be there and support them. But they're having a different. Difficult time dealing with that portrayal trauma. Do you typically advise them or suggest to them. You should also go see somebody to talk to to deal with what you're dealing with. Yeah.

04:49.95
Joshua Shea
Absolutely absolutely and that was why I also got certified as a betrayal trauma coach was because this is the other side of that coin.

05:03.00
Bruce Anthony
A.

05:05.25
Joshua Shea
And you know it's it's I hate to think that my wife thought that I made any of those choices because she wasn't good enough. You know I became an addict when I was 14 years 1214 years old um I met her when I was 26 how could she have anything to do with this.

05:11.60
Bruce Anthony
Are.

05:18.38
Bruce Anthony
Um, prior is.

05:24.14
Joshua Shea
And that's what I think really is important for the partners to understand out there. You are the victims. But if you've decided you want to try to make things work if you've decided you want to help this person get the assistance they need to hopefully recover. You are are unfortunately not going to be able to lean into the victim side of things with them. But it's still important that you do. It's still important that you talk about the pain and the anguish that their choices as an addict caused you. And also I have found that betrayal trauma is just a 2020 s way of saying my latest trauma from the last person I thought would do it to me I would say to you Bruce that 100% of the clients I have seen for betrayal trauma.

06:12.52
Bruce Anthony
Um.

06:20.88
Joshua Shea
Have some preexisting trauma in their life and what the betrayal trauma causes it causes that previous trauma to bubble back up to the surface. So So these partners are not just dealing with the fact that they've learned their partner is completely into Pornography. They're also having to deal with oh my God here's some old memories here's some old anguish here's some old stuff that's happening from my own life that I now have to deal with so it's it's It's a little bit odd in that once you get beyond the initial. Ah.

06:45.20
Bruce Anthony
Um, him.

06:50.14
Bruce Anthony
Um, there.

07:00.50
Joshua Shea
Addiction and handling the addiction and getting the addiction under control with the addicts and once you handle the ah shock that is still with the partners. The treatment is largely the Same. It's about going back to Childhood. And finding out what those original Traumas were and clearing them up. It's it's it's odd but it largely is at least the way that I do it the same treatment.

07:28.82
Bruce Anthony
Yeah, my sister talks about childhood trauma a lot. She has a therapist and a psychiatrist and she's like childhood trauma and I'm like everything is based on our childhood and it yes childhood trauma. Um, so.

07:39.91
Joshua Shea
Yep, But what's important to also say is that you could have had the exact same experience as her been standing next to her when she was having the trauma or she was getting that trauma internalized and it not internalized with you. It's not like a physical issue where if I take a baseball bat to your sister's knee and I take a baseball bat to your knee. The results are going to be similar. You could have twin Brothers Twin sisters who go through the exact same thing and are affected with trauma.

08:15.40
Bruce Anthony
Yeah, you know Joshua I always use an analogy of 2 people walking in the woods they're taking the exact same path right? They could be the same height same weight same everything and they're walking woods they could be looking at the exact same things but everything the sounds the smells and everything hits.

08:15.90
Joshua Shea
Absolutely differently.

08:32.68
Bruce Anthony
1 person differently than another person. So just because 2 people have walked the same path doesn't mean that they're going to have the same experiences. So I guess that's kind of what you're saying with the portrayal trauma and that addict when that addict is in the recovery and and and I'm sure there's some cognizant.

08:37.51
Joshua Shea
Absolutely absolutely.

08:50.96
Bruce Anthony
Realization of what they've done to their partners and loved ones but but when they with those with their partners or loved ones or their support system. That's really having a difficult time because of that betrayal trauma. How does that affect the addict.

08:51.54
Joshua Shea
Yes.

09:05.10
Bruce Anthony
Does that in some cases make the addict relapse because they've caused pain to others.

09:10.30
Joshua Shea
It It absolutely can. It is a burden Um, and it is one of those things where the addict understands. Oh my. Not only did I did I mess up my life. Not only did I mess with my mind I messed with this person's mind who I Love very much. I hurt this person in ways that I never wanted to hurt them but because I was an addict I couldn't control it when you're an addict you will lie cheat steal Maneuver Manipulate. Do whatever you have to do to serve your God which is the addiction.

09:42.11
Bruce Anthony
A.

09:44.24
Joshua Shea
And to get those chemicals so you can feel better including doing horrible things and treating your partner horribly. It's when you get clean that you recognize just how much damage you truly did and how much work you have to do to fix things just because they may not be coming down on you hard. Just because they may not be shaming you because they're thinking about your recovery doesn't mean that you don't have a lot of work to do to rebuild trust with that person.

10:15.63
Bruce Anthony
Yeah, yeah, um, so we're we've talked about the recovery and addicts working on their addiction. But what? Ah what are the consequences of going. Untreated for your pornography Addiction. What are some of the outcomes these people will face when they just there're going to be some people out there that are going to listen and watch this show and they're going to say I don't have a problem right? like we've seen it in every walk of life when people who are addicted to alcohol drugs I don't have a problem. I can drink all this and still function the next day I can smoke all this and still function the next day I can watch all this porn and and still be great with my partner. It doesn't affect me but they might actually still be addicted to that to to whatever it is that they're using what happens when these people don't. Try to fix this addiction.

11:05.13
Joshua Shea
I I believe that at its core addiction is addiction is addiction is addiction basically the same stuff is happening in your brain. Yes, if you are using cocaine or heroin or a chemical. You are going to have other side effects. But really if you are a gambling addict. You're probably going to lose the house before you are a porn addict. You know if you are a if you have an eating disorder and you are you are a Glutton. You will probably have a heart attack before somebody who is into Porn. Every addiction has their own unique side effects. But it's largely the same thing that's going on in the head over and over and over Again. It's largely the same thing from addict to addict and what needs to be. Dealt with um, it.

12:04.97
Joshua Shea
Whoa Upset when you leave an addiction untreated whether it's cocaine whether it's porn alcohol gambling I don't care what it is. You're going to end up in only one of a few places.

12:05.17
Bruce Anthony
Fine.

12:20.74
Joshua Shea
You're going to end up losing your family and friends you're going to end up in financial dire straits. You're going to end up with some kind of health issue. You're going to end up with some kind of legal problem or you're going to end up dead. The only other choice is to get better. You end up in one of those 5 places or multiple places at the same time or you get better that's that's it there is no happy ending to addiction unless you go to recovery.

12:54.90
Bruce Anthony
I'm sorry you said happy ending. We're doing serious talks here but that was fun. So this is serious talk. But yeah.

12:57.39
Joshua Shea
And how often I say you have to beat this addiction and it's hard. Yeah I'm yeah no I take you know what I truly believe we have to be able to laugh about this stuff if we're going to live through it.

13:13.76
Bruce Anthony
We have to laugh bring it out of ah, bring it out of the darkness bring it to the light and also laugh and realize that everybody is human and everybody has their own stuff right? like everybody goes through something we touched on something in the last episode.

13:20.20
Joshua Shea
Absolutely yeah yeah.

13:28.37
Bruce Anthony
And you talked about the statistics of erectile dysfunction and its correlation to the accessibility to porn I don't have any statistics to back this up. Maybe you do, but there's I believe that there's been a rise of sexual assault. Over the last couple of decades that core correlates with the accessibility of porn and the access of porn at such a very young age. You said you saw your first hardcore porn magazine at the age of 12 I saw mine at I don't know. 141516 sometime around there but kids have access to this stuff younger and younger and they don't know what they're watching. We had some idea at at 12 is even young, but fourteen fifteen you got some idea. Maybe you've even had sexual experiences.

14:11.37
Joshua Shea
Right.

14:22.29
Bruce Anthony
But these kids that are 7 8 nine years old not realizing that this is not real because I've actually been on a porn set before and and realized its like oh there's a lot of cuts and angles. This is like a regular tv show or movie. This is nothing like what's portrayed on the screen but kids.

14:26.29
Joshua Shea
Right. Yeah, yeah, exactly.

14:38.93
Bruce Anthony
Don't know that and it's messing up their minds. So I I say I have no statistical facts to back this up. This is just my theory because it's been such a rise in sexual assaults part of that is more reporting. But also I think this has to do with the fact that people at a young age are being exposed to sex and not realizing that what they're seeing. Is not real sex. What is what do you think about that because I just do a I Just do a curve ball at you.

15:01.82
Joshua Shea
What I have seen statistically what I have seen in studies is that while there are more incidents of sexual assaults. There. It's only. Been an equal rise in percentage of people watching Pornography. There are not individual numbers of people watching Pornography. There is not a connection between somebody watching porn and going out and becoming a rapist.

15:28.46
Bruce Anthony
A.

15:35.30
Joshua Shea
It's like saying somebody who plays a violent video game is going to go out and Rob a store. Do people who Rob stores play violent video games I'm sure some do do people who rape others watch porn I'm sure some do, but there is not a tight correlation.

15:36.82
Bruce Anthony
It would be there.

15:44.57
Bruce Anthony
A.

15:54.31
Joshua Shea
That is or I should say there's not a tight causation that has been proven between the 2

15:58.71
Bruce Anthony
Causation. Okay, that's good to know because the next question I was gonna talk to you about is with the advent of the internet high speed internet and the growth of the sex industry because of that. Kids have more access to it. So for those parents out there. What are some things that they can do to protect their young kids from viewing these images at such a young age.

16:24.17
Joshua Shea
What you need to do is to recognize they are going to see those images. It's not a matter of if it's a matter of when you can put all the blockers on their phones. You want you can put all the blockers on Tv that they want.

16:29.65
Bruce Anthony
A.

16:43.00
Joshua Shea
You cannot go out into society and not be faced with a bombardment of sexuality that borders on soft core pornography and odds are one of your friends is going to show you hardcore pornography along the way if not many of them many times. So what we have to do is prepare with education and I believe that can start very young. You can tell your 4 year old your 5 year old hey you don't show anybody what's underneath your bathing suit or your underwear and you don't ever go look at what's under somebody else's bathing suit or their underwear. And you don't ever let anybody take a picture of you without your clothes on and you don't ever take a picture of someone else without their clothes on and there's your lesson for 5 years old maybe at 6 or 7 you start to say listen you may have some friends at school or someplace who on their tablet. You may see pictures of of naked men and women on there. Please let mommy know please let your teacher know that's like cigarettes or that's like beer little kids aren't supposed to see that stuff. It's not good for them when you're a grownup you can make a decision if you want to look at that stuff. But right now as a kid in this house. We don't do that and I think you can give very age appropriate guidance as a child gets older including up to a boy being twelve years old where you can teach them about poor induced erectile dysfunction.

17:59.93
Bruce Anthony
Is it.

18:16.49
Joshua Shea
I think if we told these 12 year old boys who they don't want to become porn addicts they want girlfriends. They just want to have a girl to hold hold their hand to kiss them most of them aren't even thinking about sex. But if they can't get anything like that.

18:21.94
Bruce Anthony
A.

18:33.38
Joshua Shea
They will watch pornography and that's how many of them fall into it and I think if we can let them know hey at your age you watch too much of this stuff by the time that you're a teenager your penis will stop working. That's not just a scare tactic. That's the truth and we're seeing that.

18:51.31
Bruce Anthony
That's yeah.

18:52.35
Joshua Shea
In men in their early or in their late teens and early 20 s like we talked about the last episode in numbers that we've never seen before I don't think these 12 and thirteen year old boys know about it I think they only learn about it after it's too late and we need to be able to educate them when the time is right.

19:04.73
Bruce Anthony
Here.

19:10.60
Joshua Shea
Again, it goes back to our puritanical society. What if in the health classes and hygiene classes that are taught in middle school and high school where you learn about drugs you learn about you know, raising children you learn about all of these other things. What if 1 class was devoted toward. What happens with pornography and pornography addiction just one class I think that we would be able to see some statistics really drop because again most kids I truly believe want to do the right thing and they want to know what the right thing is. And if they are not given guidance if they are not giving education. They will go with what feels good or what feels right? and as as adults and over the last two decades we have been failing these children and we need to turn this around.

20:02.92
Bruce Anthony
Yeah I completely agree with you I don't think that would I don't think that's gonna fly in this in this American society that they're trying to do away with sex Ed already sort of so they're not going to add.

20:12.37
Joshua Shea
No, exactly because what? what's going on. We have these old white men who are seeing a world that is changing way too fast for them still running things in Washington. You know, just grasping for straws at this world that they don't understand at this world that is changing rapidly and they're shaking their fist at it. Thankfully they'll all be dead in ten to twenty years and I have to I have to say that? yes.

20:42.62
Bruce Anthony
Um, thankfully okay.

20:45.84
Joshua Shea
Thankfully, they will be dead soon and we just have to wait them out and what we have to do and what I have recognized is when I am working I'd love working with younger people more than anything else. The 18 to 1825 to 18 to 30 year old bracket I have more enthusiasm.

20:58.27
Bruce Anthony
Um, a.

21:05.30
Joshua Shea
I have more hope and I have more belief that this is going to be the generation that truly helps this world than any other that's came before me that's certainly ours. We're generation x we just watched the world burn I think that this youngest generation of our kids. Maybe the first in several generations to actually do some good in the world because I got to tell you I know that they call my grandparents and my parents' generation the greatest generation. Well, that's a bunch of crap I truly believe that my kids will be the greatest generation because they seem to actually care about this stuff.

21:36.93
Bruce Anthony
Yeah.

21:44.26
Joshua Shea
At 23 and 24 years old in a way that nobody ever has before.

21:48.44
Bruce Anthony
Yeah I'm a big I'm a big supporter of Gen Z I think they're just generally smarter than us because they they had more access to information they know more about the world I will say Generation X and millennials. We weren't completely horrible. We were just incrementalists and Gen Z they are not incrementalists they are.

21:53.51
Joshua Shea
Absolutely.

22:07.84
Bruce Anthony
This is the way it should be and it's going to be that way now and I I really really rock with them. Also they're also the ones that have erectile dysfunction at the age of 20 so we have to we. Our generation is still very very important and helping. Along these these young adults. Um, so you said a good scared tact if we're like a 12 or 13 or 14 year old is to you know say hey your painting this might not work one day what is your advice to that parent that has that teenager that just.

22:27.79
Joshua Shea
Yes.

22:46.89
Bruce Anthony
They'll let them watch all the violent movies in the world but just have the hardest time in the world talking to their children about sex.

22:51.78
Joshua Shea
Well I think that's normal I think that's how most generations are one of the things you know we talk about the generations I think Generation X like you and I are is kind of that that fulcrum in the middle we talk about our parents our grandparents they were so sexually conservative.

23:08.54
Bruce Anthony
Yeah, yeah.

23:10.47
Joshua Shea
And now you've got the millennials and Gen Z which are probably far too sexually liberal and and the internet bringing certain images and certain beliefs that certain dangerous behaviors are okay and fun. Um I think that what we our generation. Is really the one that sort of allowed this to happen not that it didn't need some changing but we let it go a little too far and we need to make sure that there is.

23:33.97
Bruce Anthony
Um, yes.

23:42.58
Joshua Shea
That we at least let as many of these younger kids know that this can be an issue. We may not know much about Pornography Addiction. We may not know how it hits certain demographics. At this point we are still learning how. Things like only fans in the do it-yourself pornography and selling porn of yourself online. What is that going to do to the millions of people who've started doing that the last few years we don't know yet. It's largely this younger generation in 20 years. We're going to know what happened to them mentally and emotionally from selling their bodies online.

24:11.80
Bruce Anthony
Um, a.

24:17.34
Joshua Shea
Maybe it'll be horrible. Maybe it'll be nothing but we need to at least have a discussion around it before it's too late.

24:25.32
Bruce Anthony
So I know that you you wrote a book. Your third book was about ah the rise of online pornography specifically um, not solely only fans but only fans is the one that gets the big checkmark and push.

24:27.32
Joshua Shea
Nothing.

24:36.55
Joshua Shea
Right.

24:41.86
Bruce Anthony
Why do you think it grew so much and why do you think normal women who might have not even done anything like that jumped into it was just the money because there is a lot of money.

24:54.73
Joshua Shea
Survival I think that it was survival I think that there was a a group of people who otherwise would never do anything like they would never be a stripper. They would never make a porn movie. They would never do a lot of this stuff. But when you have. A great catastrophe like the pandemic which who did that furlough mainly young people waitresses waiters hostesses, bartenders Retail workers who are these people they are usually young people who care about their appearance.

25:17.17
Bruce Anthony
A.

25:29.75
Joshua Shea
And are somewhat gregarious and outgoing. So now they can't get all this money from their work because their work is closed. What are they supposed to do if they have a kid. What are they supposed to do if they have rent or a mortgage and this is one of those places that it is hard to say.

25:32.85
Bruce Anthony
Um, yeah.

25:47.50
Joshua Shea
No, you can't go do that to survive. Um and that's why you saw January first 2020 just before most of us learned about the pandemic only fans had roughly three hundred thousand content creators worldwide two years later january first twenty twenty two

25:54.51
Bruce Anthony
Um.

26:07.12
Joshua Shea
They had over 2000000 content creators that is a growth of one point seven million porn stars on just that one site that doesn't even count all the cam sites that doesn't count the only fans copycat sites which are big out there.

26:07.70
Bruce Anthony
Who.

26:25.00
Joshua Shea
My guess honestly would be that somewhere between 3 and 5000000 people worldwide started making pornography during the pandemic and. If you made the pornography and you needed the money and then you went back to your normal life. You know I understand we have to make hard decisions. We don't want to make sometimes but what was interesting was when I started my book I interviewed a bunch of only finns. Ah, models and a bunch of km models who had been doing this for a while because I wanted them to watch how the customer changed over the pandemic I also I also interviewed many models who were just starting out because of the pandemic.

27:00.62
Bruce Anthony
A.

27:08.23
Bruce Anthony
Are.

27:10.41
Joshua Shea
Um, and and had planned to make their money this way now I came back four months later when I was finishing up the research for the book and I interviewed those veterans and they were like well here's how the customers have changed There's a lot more They're throwing money out there but they're scared to death of the world and blah blah blah. When I went back four months later and interviewed these new models. Yes, there were some who were still talking about the money but there were some especially the younger ladies who were talking about you know in real life I can't get a date and now I've got guys who want to fly me all over the world. Or in real life I can't get a guy to look at me and I know if I put a picture of my butt online I can charge $5 and I'll have $300 within an hour of guys who want to see my butt and nobody wants to see that in real life here and what I'm what I was hearing from them. Was that they are getting a dopamine rush they are getting an oxytocin rush when they are doing this modeling when they are putting this stuff out there and the attention and the love that they're getting back from their customer base.

28:08.94
Bruce Anthony
Ah.

28:20.49
Joshua Shea
That does not sound mentally healthy. It sounds exactly like addiction and I think that pornography addiction from the producer's side of the coin is going to become more prevalent as we move forward.

28:25.63
Bruce Anthony
Addiction.

28:37.19
Joshua Shea
And it's just the other side of the coin from those who are the consumers if everybody's going after that dopamine at the end of the day I can see 20 years from now men and women our age who are on these sites not because they're making money.

28:42.59
Bruce Anthony
Um, hey.

28:54.10
Joshua Shea
But because they're getting that emotional push they're getting that dopamine they're getting what they need from doing this and it's largely the same thing that the consumers need I believe that the I believe the legacy of the pandemic is not going to be about. The consumers of porn I Believe it's going to be about the producers.

29:11.50
Bruce Anthony
Is gonna be the but did you see an escalation with the new models that it jumped into porn during the pandemic of them at first going. Well I'm just gonna show a couple of pictures to okay I'll do some videos.

29:24.74
Joshua Shea
Yep, just going to just going to be lingerie and many of these girls said this kind of stuff to me and then by the time that I interviewed them four months later they are performing lesbian acts with their friends who they feel have no lesbian feelings towards.

29:40.23
Bruce Anthony
Yeah.

29:42.20
Joshua Shea
They just understand they're going to get more money and get more response that way.

29:48.30
Bruce Anthony
So you have 4 books. Ah, you've done Ted talks you're and also a counselor as well. Um, aside from yourself and definitely you know we're definitely promoting your books and your website and all the things that you do.

29:48.99
Joshua Shea
Nothing. Mother.

30:04.85
Bruce Anthony
But what are some of the recommended resources and systems that people can use when they're struggling with porn addiction and their partner. You touched a little bit about it earlier but you said 12 steps you said there's some books what happens to those people who are financially strapped.

30:19.95
Joshua Shea
Well fortunately Google is free and there's a lot of stuff out there now compared to five years ago that wasn't out there. There are there is so much on Youtube that wasn't out there five years ago

30:22.68
Bruce Anthony
Google is free.

30:36.43
Joshua Shea
You can do online 12 step groups. You can go to online forums nobody's going to charge you to go to a 12 step group down the street from your house. Yes, it costs money to get therapy to get coaching to go to Rehab, but it doesn't have to be that way if you don't have those resources. Because ultimately at the end of the day. It's up to the addict whether they're going to quit or not not how they do it.

31:05.41
Bruce Anthony
I Want to Wow I Want to thank you for this interview. This was very insightful and I ah hoped I learned a lot and I hope my listeners learned a lot and.

31:18.47
Bruce Anthony
Realized I have okay I got 1 final question ultimately is porn bad in your eyes. Do you think pornography is bad or do you.

31:21.32
Joshua Shea
Okay.

31:29.68
Joshua Shea
I Don't put a value I Personally don't put a value judgment on it If you think it's bad. It's bad if you think it's fine. It's fine. What I think is that I I describe myself as not being anti porn.

31:34.54
Bruce Anthony
Yeah.

31:46.69
Joshua Shea
Because we are never going to remove porn from this World. Sexuality is a normal thing. It's a natural thing. It's a beautiful thing and part of sexuality is curiosity in the depictions of sexuality since there have been Cavemen who could draw on the walls. Since there have been Artisans who could put little statues together. We have seen depictions of Pornography. It's not going anywhere and if the arguments against pornography were going to work. They would have worked back in the 60 s and seventy s when they were starting to be made.

32:18.84
Bruce Anthony
Here.

32:22.49
Joshua Shea
I am sorry to all of those people who have a pollyanna ish look at this that we can just ban pornography outright we can't we tried that with alcohol in this country a hundred years ago when there was far less technology and that failed miserably. We're not going to outlaw pornography.

32:35.00
Bruce Anthony
Didn't work.

32:42.80
Joshua Shea
What we can do is educate ourselves I'm not anti pornography I am pro healthy sexuality.

32:48.50
Bruce Anthony
Oh man that is beautiful. Beautiful Joshua thank you so much for this interview I appreciate you coming in and and teaching my audience about porn addiction pornography and betrayal trauma that was the underneath thing that I think a lot of people didn't.

33:06.79
Joshua Shea
Right.

33:07.87
Bruce Anthony
Didn't realize um it was going on with addiction is that that's a legitimate thing because there are people out there that are dealing with fan members friends partners that are suffering from addiction not solely porn addiction drugs alcohol video games is ah is a huge addiction now and theray and learning about portrayal trauma which is. Something I didn't even realize that was really really important. So once again, thank you so much for coming today.

33:30.92
Joshua Shea
And thank you for allowing me to be here I appreciate it very much.

33:34.89
Bruce Anthony
It was absolutely my pleasure.