Part 1: Conversation on Pornography Addiction and Trauma Work with Joshua Shea

00:05.20
Bruce Anthony
On today's episode I interviewed Joshua Shay he's a former parent porn. On today's episode I interviewed Joshua Shay he's a former porn addict turned porn expert. We're gonna be talking about porn porn addiction and trauma. But first things first.

01:08.15
Bruce Anthony
So you know I'm always excited to be to interview guests. Ah this is another exciting interview for me I'm going to be interviewing Joshua Shay he's a former porn addict recovered from his porn addiction and's become an expert and counselor in the field and helped ah other people. Deal with porn addiction and betrayal trauma that's something that we'll talk about in the second part because this is a two part series. Ah, he's written 4 books. He's a porn addict now what that was released in 2019 Porn in a pandemic how three months and 2020 changed everything that would be released in July twenty the addiction nobody will talk about how I left my pornography addiction hurt people and destroyed relationships that was his first book that was released in 2018 and his latest book ah I'm reading this book about porn addiction for a friend. It was released in 2022. So once again, this is another 2 part interview. We're gonna be digging into porn addiction discussing or discussing the effects and the causes of porn addiction. Um, how how it deals with the relationships. That you have when you have a porn addiction to journey of recovering. Ah Joshua will be telling his personal experience about that and um, it's going to be really interesting to see ah how porn affects people ah and those around them.

02:36.19
Bruce Anthony
If There's a increase in Porn Addiction. We're going to be finding out about that. We're going to be talking about. You know how it affects you physically mentally and emotionally ah dealing with Porn. Um, but that's enough of me rambling on about what we're going to talk about. Let's get to the interview.

00:34.78
Bruce Anthony
I'm here with Joshua Shay former porn addict turned expert to help people with porn addiction author journalist ted talk welcome to the show. It's my pleasure and it it.

00:42.91
Joshua Shea
Thank you so much for having me Bruce I appreciate it.

00:50.46
Bruce Anthony
I Feel like this is an interesting topic because nobody wants to talk about it. It is the thing behind the door that pretty much everybody kind of does or kind of watch somebody in their lifetime has seen porn but nobody really wants to talk about it.

01:03.58
Joshua Shea
Yes.

01:07.50
Bruce Anthony
Unless it's your really really close friends or family members and you say it on the hush terms. Um, but you were a former po at Porn addicts and now you're an expert helping with porn addiction but I want to get started with your journey. So how did you become addicted to porn.

01:19.12
Joshua Shea
Okay, well my story is very very textbook with most people who end up as porn addicts especially men you know Ninety Nine Point nine percent end up having some kind of. Pretty severe trauma in their life when they're young I suffered sexual abuse at the hands of a babysitter and her family when I was young I also had a series of.

01:46.86
Bruce Anthony
A.

01:54.21
Joshua Shea
Mental slash emotional abuse at the hands of my grandmother and that kind of abuse is usually what leads to trauma that kind of trauma often leads to addiction to handle it and when I was twelve years old and my older cousin showed me.

01:56.81
Bruce Anthony
A.

02:05.15
Bruce Anthony
Right.

02:11.95
Joshua Shea
Hardcore pornography magazines for the first time it took a matter of seconds before I was completely addicted before I completely identified with it and before I completely realized that aha I have found something here that is going to help me. For the rest of my life and the only other time I felt that this was when I was twelve years old the only other time I felt this was about two years later when I was fourteen years old and I got drunk for the first time and then from that point forward pornography and alcohol.

02:41.26
Bruce Anthony
And.

02:47.56
Joshua Shea
Ah, were my go-tos no matter what for the next twenty two to 24 years no matter where I was in life if I was a student if I was starting my career if I was well into it whether I was dating or married had kids or not. Didn't matter where I was in my life between my early teens and my mid 30 s I could count on pornography into a lesser degree alcohol to make any day better if I needed it.

03:17.55
Bruce Anthony
Okay, so I have a couple of questions from what you just said? do you think that and we can get into later Some of the reasons why somebody would be addicted to porn. But do you think that you being sexualized So Young opened up. Opened you up sexually.

03:36.21
Joshua Shea
Well, you know what I think it did was interesting because the the sexualization that was happening to me at the babysitter took place probably between the ages of about 3 and 7 I didn't see those hardcore magazines till I was twelve years old but what I think they did was.

03:45.61
Bruce Anthony
He knew twelve years old yeah

03:54.37
Joshua Shea
I Think they normalized what happened to me I think for many years I carried this ball of trauma ball of emotion wondering What the heck had happened to me why the heck had it only happened there. Why was it happening elsewhere in life and then.

03:57.34
Bruce Anthony
Hang.

04:08.96
Bruce Anthony
Um, a.

04:11.90
Joshua Shea
My cousin presents me at twelve years old with these magazines of people doing largely the exact same activities that I had done had done to me and I think in some way it it normalized it because as a young kid you don't necessarily think something is bad or something is good.

04:17.67
Bruce Anthony
A.

04:31.50
Joshua Shea
It just is and then when I finally saw it in that magazine I think that it helped me come to terms with what happened to me and actually put it behind me which sounds like a good eyed thing. But what it really did was it helped me repress.

04:42.17
Bruce Anthony
Um, a.

04:45.30
Bruce Anthony
Are.

04:47.17
Joshua Shea
Ah, the incidents in my mind. It helped me forget the incidents in my mind and it allowed me to move forward, largely forgetting what happened until I got into recovery twenty four years later

04:58.83
Bruce Anthony
And the the between the porn and the alcohol that definitely the alcohol definitely helped you deal with the repression of those past events.

05:12.60
Joshua Shea
Ah, absolutely absolutely and and pornography what alcohol did for me from that point when I first started at 14 moving forward um was absolutely helped numb me it. Absolutely.

05:27.86
Bruce Anthony
Um, yeah.

05:28.38
Joshua Shea
Just shut off stress it shut off the bad things in the world and what pornography helped me do was to get a sense of power or a sense of control. So I usually use those 2 things in conjunction I would drink first.

05:38.15
Bruce Anthony
Who.

05:45.19
Joshua Shea
And then I would use pornography and that was largely the pattern through life. It wasn't until I got into recovery that I truly understood and embraced the idea that Pornography addiction was a real thing was a separate addiction. It wasn't until I was able to. Wrap my arms around the idea that it wasn't just a bad choice I made when I was drunk but it was a different addiction altogether and all of these years I was actually co-addicted. Not just addicted to alcohol.

06:09.18
Bruce Anthony
Hey.

06:16.68
Bruce Anthony
Yeah, um, so I I don't I don't know what your age is but I'm 42 43 years old in the first experience I forty what did I say forty two forty I'm 42

06:26.80
Joshua Shea
So you're 43 you're said you're 42 43 and I know when why no when we get to be this age and we say oh yeah I'm 46 forty seven I'm 47 okay

06:35.93
Bruce Anthony
Is.

06:41.62
Bruce Anthony
I'm I'm 42 for another six weeks or so so I'm holding on to that 42 but I wasn't introduced to hardcore porn until I was ah 10 and I don't even consider that hardcore porn. It was playboys to me hardcore porn was kind of like Hustler.

06:45.92
Joshua Shea
And.

06:54.37
Joshua Shea
Yeah, right.

06:58.92
Bruce Anthony
And I actually wasn't introduced to videos until much later it was 141516 years old um so are so how how much older was your cousin to be able to get this and then pass it along to you.

07:18.11
Joshua Shea
He not really not really I think what I think happened is that I think either a friend of his passed them along to him or he stole them from a store. Um.

07:18.12
Bruce Anthony
Was it a major age difference because a twelve year old

07:26.11
Bruce Anthony
A.

07:30.90
Joshua Shea
He had only 2 or 3 and again it was penthouse or Hustler it wasn't but wasn't playboy it was. It was the harder stuff and he showed that to me when I was twelve years old and I had seen naked people on Hbo and whatnot to that point and.

07:34.73
Bruce Anthony
It was the hard stuff. Yeah.

07:48.21
Bruce Anthony
Um, even.

07:50.41
Joshua Shea
It did not do to me what it did actually seeing the sexual act that was happening on those pages of that magazine when I was 12

07:57.10
Bruce Anthony
Yeah, what does porn addiction look like because a lot of people are going to listen and watch this episode and they're going to say why mean I watch porn like how do you know? if you're addicted or not addicted.

08:09.91
Joshua Shea
Well I can I can tell you that very quickly it stops being about the images on the screen I was not a porn addict for 24 years because I really like breasts or I really like watching people go at it I was a porn addict because.

08:17.12
Bruce Anthony
Okay.

08:26.92
Bruce Anthony
Um, yeah.

08:29.31
Joshua Shea
I was struggling with this trauma and for some reason the alcohol and the pornography. These were the things that got to the point. Maybe if I had been older and somebody introduced harder drugs to me. Maybe if somebody had introduced gambling to me. Maybe those would have been my vices.

08:47.40
Bruce Anthony
A.

08:49.13
Joshua Shea
But where I was as a young teenager porn and alcohol was available and for the first time it made me feel good about myself. So it wasn't that I wanted to go to parties in high school and look cool with the other guys drinking I would have rather been at home by myself drinking. And you know and actually at that point saying I like the taste of this where most kids in high school didn't like that I would have rather been at home looking at pornography not because I was seeing beautiful women on the screen but because that made me feel like I was in control of my life. That put me in a place where I felt like I had some power where I really didn't the rest of the time because of what had happened to me because when you think about it what you're looking at on a screen when you are looking at pornography. You can see anything you want if I want to watch you know two asian people go at it. Great, okay, well you know what? I don't need the guy I can just have two girls go at it. Great. Well, let's make it 6 girls of all ethnicities. Great. Just keep pushing that button and you get whatever you want because there's so much porn in this world. You can see whatever you want and nobody on that screen is going to say whoa ho ho no josh you can't watch us today. Or you still have to put out the trash or you're late to work or you didn't get a good grade on this test nobody on the screen complains nobody on the screen has any demands of you they are there to serve you when you are sitting there looking at porn you are basically.

10:06.88
Bruce Anthony
Um, and.

10:24.73
Joshua Shea
Like the sexual master of the universe and what that allowed me to do was to create a false sense of control that was lacking from my life. So that sense of control. That's what created the chemicals in my head the dopamine. The oxytocin the serotonin The endorphins.

10:25.82
Bruce Anthony
Okay.

10:43.99
Joshua Shea
All of these things that cause or or or what the ah goal of being an addict is is to get at these chemicals that are in your head these you know sort of all natural drugs and get them released because that's that's the goal. That's when you feel good. That's when you feel like it's on top you're on top of the world. It had nothing to do with seeing a certain body part on a certain man or woman it had nothing to do with seeing a man or woman or something you know in between having actual sex. It was that these images would prompt. The chemical reaction in my head. That's why I went to them if it was a matter of watching football or baseball and getting those chemical reactions I would have been watching football or baseball. It really didn't matter to me, especially in the later years what was on the screen I was just there to get my chemicals.

11:23.72
Bruce Anthony
Um, here I went.

11:39.37
Joshua Shea
And get the heck out of there I didn't care what I was looking at for the most part and that's the number one biggest difference between addiction use and recreational use when it comes to pornography is that for the addicts. It really doesn't have very much to do with sex or nudity.

11:58.83
Bruce Anthony
Huh. Okay, so for those people out there and I know this is a running joke on Instagram and Twitter of you know, somebody on porn hub and they're on page seven hundred and eighty two because they're they're looking for. Something in particular to satisfy them would that be considered recreational would that be considered addiction seven I mean I know that's an exaggeration.

12:21.50
Joshua Shea
That's pretty much addiction if you're on page seven hundred and eighty two that's addiction but honestly most addicts report that they when they reach the ongoing stages of addiction. 1 of the symptoms is that they do search for that perfect piece to finish with that. They recognize is going to cause the biggest dopamine dump that is going to cause the biggest high when they finally self-satisfied to the point of orgasm.

12:43.35
Bruce Anthony
Um, yeah.

12:52.10
Joshua Shea
It's going to cause the greatest reaction and sometimes and I can speak for myself and I can speak for my clients who I help as a coach they will find something maybe 30 minutes of of looking they'll find something at minute 15 put it off to the side and say okay, that's what I'm going to finish with.

12:53.80
Bruce Anthony
A.

13:10.86
Joshua Shea
Because that's going to be the biggest. The biggest bang for my buck so to speak and that is one of the true signs of addiction with pornography is that you look for a perfect piece of it to finish with.

13:13.43
Bruce Anthony
The.

13:25.70
Bruce Anthony
Wow. Okay, so that's okay, um, I'm thinking in my head because I talked to a couple people out there and this kind of what they say to me. So Okay I Hope they're they're Listening. Um. What are some of the challenges you faced when overcoming and the addiction to porn.

13:48.50
Joshua Shea
Ah, well I was that one of the biggest ones was that I recognized because of my personality type and I was very much an overachiever very much a go-getter very much an egomaniac. Um I recognized that I needed because of my personality type at the time I needed to quit both simultaneously if I was not going to quit porn and not ah and be able to just drink for a while.

14:07.78
Bruce Anthony
Here.

14:17.72
Joshua Shea
I was not going to be able to quit alcohol and just look at porn for a while I knew that these 2 things worked hand in hand for 2 decades with me and the only way that I was going to be able to beat either of them was to go cold turkey and to go cold turkey on both at the same time. So.

14:33.87
Bruce Anthony
Um, yeah.

14:37.47
Joshua Shea
That was very challenging upfront I don't know if I hadn't gone off to an inpatient Rehab if I had if I would have been able to do it because I truly had to be out of my element living a very different life having very different routines.

14:45.98
Bruce Anthony
The.

14:55.38
Joshua Shea
To be able to beat back both at the same time.

14:57.45
Bruce Anthony
And so you overcome this addiction so you go to an in treatment facility. Were there any relapses or once you went to this facility and you came out Obviously it's a day to day process with addiction. No matter what you're addicted to. But. After that did you have any relapses or were you good to go for the most part.

15:21.52
Joshua Shea
No, what was what was nice was I first went to rehab for alcoholism um I was there for ten weeks and I did not use pornography the entire time.

15:25.36
Bruce Anthony
The.

15:33.71
Joshua Shea
And I actually had started to see a certified sex addiction therapist while I was at that Rehab who helped me understand addiction is a disease porn addiction is absolutely real and my porn addiction was separate of the alcohol it predated it.

15:48.18
Bruce Anthony
And.

15:49.96
Joshua Shea
And it may have even done even more damage to my relationships with people than the alcohol did that allowed me to both work on the alcohol and work on the porn addiction for ten weeks in an environment that was nothing like my own home. And when I finally went home after having been gone so long and also having lost my job because of the alcoholism I was able to create new routines that didn't have to do with either porn or alcohol now I should say that several months later

16:20.90
Bruce Anthony
A.

16:27.72
Joshua Shea
I went to another rehab in Texas specifically for the pornography. Even though I didn't I didn't relapse and I never relapsed on alcohol or porn. But what happened was that my therapist back here.

16:30.46
Bruce Anthony
Yeah, like.

16:41.96
Joshua Shea
Agreed that I probably should go get some deeper work when it came to the trauma side of things. So even though I went to a porn and sex Rehab I hadn't looked at pornography in well over six months and I was able to get right into the real meat of the trauma work.

16:44.50
Bruce Anthony
Are.

16:54.90
Bruce Anthony
Here? yeah.

17:01.62
Joshua Shea
Whereas at the rehab for alcoholism that I went into first. Um, that was about really getting my sea legs and figuring out what is recovery and how am I going to do this and am I committed to it. Um, it wasn't until I went to that second rehab and started doing the deeper personal work.

17:07.74
Bruce Anthony
Right now.

17:19.51
Joshua Shea
That I started to truly understand what was going on with me.

17:21.72
Bruce Anthony
And and just for people out there because I'm familiar with a generalized addiction. This is something that alcoholism is something that you struggle with alcohol addiction something that you struggle with every day even though you've been fourteen years sober

17:37.87
Joshua Shea
I've been nine and a half years sober and you know what it's I don't think that anybody is ever 100% cured or healed because I think you carry that with you as part of your Dna map. It's.

17:39.21
Bruce Anthony
Nine and a half years sober. Okay.

17:45.68
Bruce Anthony
They.

17:52.39
Bruce Anthony
A.

17:55.70
Joshua Shea
It's obvious what can happen if I drink I believe if I started drinking I could convince myself probably for about a year that I was an okay drinker I think I could handle it for a year until that day that I couldn't and from that day forward I would not be able to control it again. So I don't have a.

18:07.44
Bruce Anthony
Um, yeah.

18:14.87
Joshua Shea
Even a drop of alcohol now haven't in 9 years but I will say that I went through a depressive episode several months back unlike any I've been in for many many years since before recovery and.

18:22.46
Bruce Anthony
A a.

18:29.79
Joshua Shea
I did not feel a strong pull towards either alcohol or porn and that was sort of a silver lining of that incident was that I didn't feel like I had to drink I didn't feel like I had to look at porn so that was almost the first time.

18:34.85
Bruce Anthony
That's good.

18:48.64
Joshua Shea
I Ever truly believed that my neural pathways had changed and had had had gone to a healthier place because my go to my instinct was not naturally porn and alcohol and like I said while I I would never wish that kind of depression on anybody else. There was that silver lining of hey I don't have these urges. This is a good thing.

19:09.57
Bruce Anthony
That is a good Thing. We don't have to get into your depression. But I'm curious at that moment when you realize that you didn't that you weren't going to go towards alcohol or pornography during this depressive moment. Did that help with the depression and knowing that you had kind of like you said that the neurons and everything had changed had mapped and like okay so I know now I'm better in this Avenue Maybe things are so bad.

19:38.90
Joshua Shea
On an objective intellectual level. Absolutely true. Absolutely true. This is a great thing that is happening to me on an emotional level I remember and I remembered and I still remember that back in the day.

19:43.48
Bruce Anthony
A.

19:57.36
Joshua Shea
No matter how bad my day went there was always porn and or alcohol at the end of it I heard a quote only a few days ago. It was meant in jest but it kind of made sense to me in that the 1 thing that an addict has over a healthy person. Is that they always have something to look forward to and I don't have those 2 things to look forward to and what you're really looking forward to is relief so in some ways it's like I can't use porn I can't use alcohol I have this depression.

20:16.38
Bruce Anthony
Hey hey.

20:25.00
Bruce Anthony
A.

20:34.68
Joshua Shea
I'm just going to have to ride this out I don't have the shortcuts to get through these kinds of things that I once did and frankly in some ways and I'm not saying this to glamorize and I'm not pushing anybody towards these things but in some ways on a day-to-day level.

20:37.19
Bruce Anthony
Um.

20:52.58
Joshua Shea
It was easier to deal with life when you can just numb out with alcohol and numb out with porn. Even though it's absolutely unhealthy. It just was frankly easier some days. Yes, exactly.

20:56.19
Bruce Anthony
No yeah.

21:06.51
Bruce Anthony
Yeah, it's easier in the moment events. Ah and it it. Whatever you're dealing with comes back. So you you go through the rehabs you're you're you're constantly recovering. You're still recovering.

21:10.23
Joshua Shea
Exactly.

21:21.94
Bruce Anthony
When did you become an expert and decide I want to help people through the same things that I went through.

21:26.79
Joshua Shea
But as you mentioned at the top of the show I was a journalist for nearly twenty five years I think 23 before I before I quit because I started working at a newspaper in my hometown. Was pretty much my first job I ever had I'd always worked in news. Um, and that was not a healthy environment of people to work around the journalism world is full of smokers and drinkers and snorters and shooters.

21:47.50
Bruce Anthony
Yeah.

21:54.75
Bruce Anthony
Here.

22:02.53
Bruce Anthony
Here.

22:03.95
Joshua Shea
And people who have adrenaline issues and people who have testosterone issues and people who have all kinds of issues because really, what is a journalist other than somebody who is an experienced junkie who wants to. Experience life all kinds of life from a safe distance as an observer and that's what I was for 25 years I could I have seen some amazing things I have met some amazing people I have had some amazing experiences I never would have.

22:28.11
Bruce Anthony
Oh goodness, all right.

22:38.33
Bruce Anthony
Um, like.

22:42.00
Joshua Shea
If I wasn't a journalist and that was really tough was quitting that and I remember when I went to the bookstore after I came home from the first rehab and you know hopefully those people old enough here remember bookstores and I went to the self-help section to the addiction section and there were some.

22:45.00
Bruce Anthony
Are.

22:59.88
Joshua Shea
There were some regular books on addiction. There were some There were a couple books on Alcoholism Um, there were books on drug addiction. There was nothing on sex and certainly nothing on pornography addiction Now at that point I had already started doing some research to learn more.

23:15.58
Bruce Anthony
It has.

23:17.45
Joshua Shea
Because I was a journalist I was a research geek I like reading studies you know the way that I'm sure that there are english literature majors who still read Shakespeare in their normal life I mean that'll never be me but I will read those scientific journals and enjoy them and.

23:31.89
Bruce Anthony
Neither.

23:37.28
Joshua Shea
I thought to myself I've been reading so much about porn and people don't know about how bad this is people don't know about these studies where the results are just starting to come in now because again, this was eight nine years ago people don't recognize. This is a major deal and nobody wants to talk about it.

23:52.54
Bruce Anthony
A.

23:56.79
Joshua Shea
I am willing to talk about it I have the skills to write I have the connections that I can get a book published. Why don't I go ahead and write this. So I wrote my first book which was basically tracing my last five or six years of addiction. At the same time that I launched my own publishing company that did lifestyle magazines and that book is kind of the rise and fall of that company along with the rise and fall of me in my last years of addiction when it got to the critical stage.

24:29.51
Bruce Anthony
Are.

24:31.44
Joshua Shea
I Thought that was the only book I would write I would put that into the ether that would be my contribution to this world. What happened was almost immediately after it was published I started to get messages from girlfriends and wives and even some mothers saying oh my god. I Can't believe you were able to fix yourself. How do I fix My husband. How do I fix my boyfriend and by the way I'm having trouble with this.. How is your wife dealing with this and this was when I learned the term betrayal trauma.

24:51.76
Bruce Anthony
Man.

24:58.49
Bruce Anthony
Are a.

25:04.10
Joshua Shea
And that this is what happens to the partners of many addicts of sex or pornography because they are lied to for so many years even if they flat out say I don't want you looking at this stuff. An addict will continue to look at it and because an addict is great at lying because an addict is great at manipulating.

25:10.26
Bruce Anthony
Here.

25:22.35
Joshua Shea
They can get away with it for years and years. So I learned about betrayal trauma and I started I wrote a book about that as well and then I started to do public speaking and then the pandemic hit and nobody wanted you to public speak because nobody was in the audience and nobody was available.

25:33.68
Bruce Anthony
Are a.

25:41.75
Joshua Shea
And public speaking all went online and became worth a fraction of what it was and I recognized if I was going to help people with pornography or with betrayal trauma I wasn't going to get rich writing books.

25:45.17
Bruce Anthony
A.

25:56.49
Joshua Shea
I wasn't going to get rich trying to give speeches or presentations anywhere as long as covid still existed. So I went and I got certified both as a pornography addiction coach and as a betrayal trauma coach and started doing that about two and a half years ago

26:00.86
Bruce Anthony
Edit.

26:14.29
Bruce Anthony
Okay, um I was going to bring this up later but these 2 things kind of work Out. So How does it affect a partner when those women girlfriends mothers are calling because. I Want to say most of the porn addiction is from men not to say that the women aren't aren't also addicted to porn. But so.

26:37.48
Joshua Shea
Women women are growing as a category much faster than men are because straight white men were targeted going back to the 50 s for pornography because they were a loyal reliable audience.

26:49.95
Bruce Anthony
This is true.

26:55.71
Joshua Shea
Must remember Pornography isn't business. It's an industry and back then you had to go to a theater to see this stuff or you had to go to that dirty shop on the at the side at the side of town and at that point the people who made pornography could only trust that the straight white men would be a loyal audience.

27:01.74
Bruce Anthony
Here.

27:15.69
Joshua Shea
It wasn't until we got the internet that they started to cater towards minorities that they started to cater towards women that they started to cater towards the religious types and because these days it costs so little to produce porn and it costs so little to publish porn and make money off of it. You've got all of these different groups and and different socioeconomic types that are being targeted for the first time. So while the straight white guy has had certain numbers of pornography addiction for a long time. It's everybody else now. In the world of high speed internet that's catching up because you go to church or you're a good girl. You don't have to go be seen on that side of town now going into that sketchy store with the paper bags or anything like that. You're at your house by yourself. You have equal access.

28:02.41
Bruce Anthony
This is true. This is true.

28:10.90
Joshua Shea
To the pornography that's on your computer and on the internet is everybody else.

28:13.43
Bruce Anthony
So how does it affect partners.

28:18.81
Joshua Shea
It affects partners in a couple different ways the first especially if there's been lying is that how do I trust this person. How do I trust this partner if they were able to lie to me about this for five years ten years

28:31.37
Bruce Anthony
Um, and.

28:37.80
Joshua Shea
I've even worked with people. It's up up to 20 years if they were able to lie to me for this many years this well about something like pornography. What else have they lied about who is this person. How do I trust this person. The second thing that they worry about is well.

28:47.80
Bruce Anthony
Yeah.

28:57.18
Joshua Shea
If this person betrayed me like this I should leave them shouldn't I oh wait and you talk to people who are 5 1015 years into a relationship you become very enmeshed with your responsibilities. You become very enmeshed with how you pay bills your life becomes a meshed.

29:09.66
Bruce Anthony
Um, yeah.

29:16.16
Joshua Shea
If you wanted to pull yourself away from that because what your partner did was so horrible. That's easier said than done in a lot of cases for many partners. It's where do I go? What do I do Even if I wanted to get away I don't know how to go live a life without this person.

29:26.20
Bruce Anthony
Um, there.

29:33.76
Joshua Shea
So that gets scary immediately because you know I've got kids with this person I've got a house with this person I've got you know car payments with this Person. Can I really leave them because they were looking at Pornography and I disagree with it so you get that kind of internal battle. And then finally the biggest thing you get and this is what you see mainly with females who are suffering with betrayal Trauma is the sense that they are not enough they wonder was I not good enough in bed am I Not sexy enough am I not wild enough. Why does he choose.

29:59.10
Bruce Anthony
Are.

30:10.35
Joshua Shea
To look at women who look nothing like me to get pleasure to get a sexual thrill am I not enough and that's really the self-esteem part of it where you see the biggest damage when it comes to betrayal trauma.

30:21.78
Bruce Anthony
Um, is a. So with betrayal trauma like you, you're bringing up instances where they're they're weighing out their options of if they should stay right? and you're counseling these people. And what point do you say?? Well yeah this this addiction because sometimes people have addictions and you just can't live with them or they can't beat their addictions at what point does the partner say I've got to walk away.

30:53.75
Joshua Shea
Well, the the first thing when I'm counseling somebody is I look at their age. How long they've been in the relationship and if they have any children last night I had a client for the first time she was a 19 year old woman.

31:03.64
Bruce Anthony
A.

31:12.54
Joshua Shea
Who was in a long distance relationship with a 19 year old guy on the other side of the country and he had been going back to pornography again and again I don't know if he's a true addict or he just doesn't care what she thinks.

31:17.53
Bruce Anthony
Who.

31:29.79
Joshua Shea
But he kept going back to porn again and again now if they had been in their 40 s if they had been living together if they had had kids I might have said how important is this to keep alive. But since they'd only been dating long distance for about ten months since neither of them were twenty years old yet.

31:40.32
Bruce Anthony
Are.

31:48.80
Joshua Shea
I Told her run run as fast as you can because this is not your battle to fight at this point in your life. This guy needs to get his act together you already. She was a very you know mature good head on her shoulders woman. Ah.

31:48.82
Bruce Anthony
There.

31:54.96
Bruce Anthony
A.

32:05.54
Joshua Shea
You could tell that she had so much more to offer than this guy did based on her story so because she was young because they had no kids because they weren't living together I urged her to get away as quickly as she could um it does have to do with the circumstances. But ultimately. You know if there's ever any physical abuse I tell them to get away immediately and I always tell I always tell them to have a plan if they need to get away immediately. But in most cases. Somebody who has been with their partner, especially if they're living with them if they have children with them if they're married if they've been together more than five or six years the first instinct for them is to stay together so we go down that road figuring it out first is that a possibility because that's what most people want.

32:48.69
Bruce Anthony
Yeah.

32:58.90
Joshua Shea
Sometimes that is a possibility sometimes it isn't but we figure it out after several sessions of looking at what needs to happen next for them to move forward as a healthy person.

33:10.23
Bruce Anthony
With Porn addiction I'm going to I'm going to assume I'm assuming here you know what they say where you assume you make an ass out of yourself. But I'm going to assume that with porn addiction specifically talking to males that it would affect their physical relationships. With their partners um in in those type of situations. What do you tell that that partner that's coming to you for help on dealing with something like that.

33:40.90
Joshua Shea
Well, when men do have erectile dysfunction issues and it's becoming more and more common with pornography because one of the things that those chemicals I talked about earlier the dopamine the oxytocin and so on one of the things that happens. Is that you fry your pleasure centers of your brain. Basically these nerve endings that are there that makes sex feel so good when you have sex with somebody. You get all these chemicals going. This is what's supposed to happen. This is how you perform. But if you can sit in front of a computer all day.

34:04.90
Bruce Anthony
Um, and.

34:12.10
Bruce Anthony
Right.

34:18.96
Joshua Shea
And watch different person after different person after different person be nude have sex well when you get back to your partner. You know if you've been with your partner for a while you've probably seen them naked hundreds if not thousands of times the sex while. Probably still enjoyable. You know what's going to happen. You know how that movie ends. Unfortunately what happens with the brain and we know this because of a phenomenon as known as the coolidge effect which has been studied in other species of animals when the male of a species is is.

34:38.59
Bruce Anthony
A.

34:55.29
Joshua Shea
Ah, is is confronted with the same sexual image over and over and over they will lose interest over time when it comes to the libido. It won't stay as high yet every time you introduce a new sexual image or a new potential sexual partner that libido will shoot up.

35:05.40
Bruce Anthony
Here.

35:14.24
Joshua Shea
That dopamine will shoot up. That's why you get people addicted to porn because it's something New. It's another wave of chemicals every time you see something new. Well when you are then confronted with your partner who you see all the time those those body parts aren't new that. Way that you're having intercourse isn't New. Many guys have trouble performing with their partners because they watch so much sex because they see so much nudity and because they have fried their receptors when it comes to the pleasure chemicals. They need to have extreme stuff to watch. They need to have really off the-wall stuff that are unique stuff that they might run away from in real life if they saw it but because it's on a screen because it's safe. Because they have to find something over the top to ah stimulate those those nerve endings that's something that their partner just can't do So. They're no longer able to perform with their partner.

36:21.13
Bruce Anthony
Wow wow! So basically guys be careful. What porn you watch and how much you're watching it, especially if you have a partner be respectful of the partner like you go damage yourself this? Basically what you just said Joshua is I watch too much porn.

36:40.10
Joshua Shea
Absolutely you look at statistics when when you and I were twenty years old and we're only a couple years apart when you and I were twenty years old the average percentage of men who had any kind of erectile dysfunction was between 2 and 4 these days.

36:40.89
Bruce Anthony
You're going to damage yourself.

37:00.60
Joshua Shea
The average guy who's around twenty years old is experiencing a 20 to 25% rate of erectile dysfunction now this is only happening over 20 years we're not talking generations. This is what high speed internet pornography.

37:05.17
Bruce Anthony
Cheese.

37:18.76
Joshua Shea
Being delivered to us on our computers on our phones on our Tvs on our tablets on our watches. This is what porn being delivered twenty four seven especially to the youngest among us because we give every 10 year old an iphone and say.

37:31.66
Bruce Anthony
Are.

37:36.87
Joshua Shea
Go out into the world and enjoy yourself. This is what happens these are the real results of pornography addiction. But because we're such a Puritan society because we still love to pretend that oh I don't look at that stuff I don't touch myself I'm perfectly happy.

37:51.54
Bruce Anthony
Are.

37:53.42
Joshua Shea
Because we still love to live in this fantasy Land. We are not talking about this stuff with a ah with with a cultural and with a serious discussion across what it means for our citizenship and humanity. Because he he he it's still peep naked people doing naked things and we're going to Pretend. We don't look at that.

38:15.67
Bruce Anthony
1 1 more question before I get you out of here I want to and you said you basically when you're watching when a man is watching porn over and over and again they fry the the receptors in their brain. Okay I i'm.

38:28.94
Joshua Shea
A woman will too. It's the same same science.

38:36.85
Bruce Anthony
Um, generally speaking for men because once again I assume that it's mostly men but you have already told me that there's growing number of women that are watching porn. So for people out there that are frying. They're basically desensitizing themselves sexually. Um.

38:50.77
Joshua Shea
Yep.

38:53.41
Bruce Anthony
How do you get that back for those young men that are facing erectile dysfunction at 20 years old how do they fix? Is there a way to fix that so that when they're 25 26 it could go back to quote unquote what would be normal.

39:06.53
Joshua Shea
Right? Absolutely and that's that's what's wonderful is that our brain possesses this capability of neuroplasticity. This means that our brain is always changing. Our brain is always creating new pathways. Our brain. What was it that allowed me to not need pornography or alcohol when I was going through that depressive episode several months ago it's the fact that I created these new pathways I created these new. Ah, you know this new super information highway in my head. Where the parts that deal with the dopamine and the oxytocin and all the pleasure chemicals are not getting the same electrical stimulus as saying go for it. Go for it. Go for it that it once was I've stayed away from it for so long. It's basically rewired itself.

39:56.67
Bruce Anthony
Hang.

40:03.24
Bruce Anthony
Ah.

40:03.55
Joshua Shea
And what you have to do it's It's fairly straightforward. It's fairly simple. You have to stop looking at Pornography you have to stop masturbating and you have to give it some real time and unfortunately for a lot of people who are addicts they can't because most people.

40:14.17
Bruce Anthony
A.

40:22.78
Joshua Shea
Even if they understand that they're addicts. They don't understand why they are addicts addiction is just a symptom of a bigger problem that bigger problem is almost always childhood trauma and if you don't go and get to the root of the childhood trauma if you don't go and work through it.

40:26.45
Bruce Anthony
Hey.

40:42.50
Joshua Shea
And also understand how that trauma helped create the person you are today. You're not going to get rid of this pornography addiction or maybe you will but like a client I have now he's switching completely over to video game addiction because he gets largely. It's not naked people.

40:58.25
Bruce Anthony
Um, ah were.

41:01.97
Joshua Shea
But he gets largely the same high because he feels like he's in control he feels like he has power when those scores are going up when he is meeting the goals on the screen when he is in charge of this fictional world on the screen. Well, he goes from one set of pixels on his phone of naked people to another set of pixels on his Tv screen of video games. We have to be careful that people don't change addictions because while you may say well. Ah, on an ethical level video games aren't as bad as pornography. That's fine. This isn't about ethics this is about being an ill individual and somebody who is an addict it doesn't matter if they switch their addictions so that has to be watched very closely as well. That they're not just going and finding their dopamine and the other pleasure chemicals in some other kind of addiction because that's not progress.

03:03.27
Bruce Anthony
Wow, once again, that's just part one of a 2 part series on porn addiction with Joshua Shea we got a lot got in line into porn addiction. What causes it? Um childhood traumas what my sister always says it goes back to childhood trauma. Um, that leads to not only porn addiction but to a lot of addictions. A lot of issues. The mental health issues that we've had that we've talked about in previous episodes with previous guests mental health if you don't address it. It can lead to destructive habits. Porn addiction like Joshua was saying as well as drinking in part two, we're gonna be addressing something that I think is fairly important and parents should really listen to it is how porn is affecting children porn is readily available more so and than and. My generation. Ah this younger generation has easier access to it. How does it affect them. How do you navigate that as a parrot so we'll be getting into that in part 2 but once again, this was part one I want to thank Josh for coming in not once but twice to do this interview. Ah, but until next time once again, thank you for listening. And now holla.