Navigating Mental Health and Social Work: A Conversation with Megan McKernan, LCSW

00:32.91
Bruce Anthony

On today's episode I'll be talking to social
worker and clinical therapist Meghan Mcckernan

she's based out of Baltimore has our own practice
called clarity wellness solutions and we're

going to be talking about ptsd trauma and
mental health. But first things first.

00:32.50
Bruce Anthony

I'm really excited to be interviewing Meghan
mccurnan today I think Mental Health is getting

a little bit more pup you know over the last
couple of years, especially during a pandemic

of of people really addressing their mental
health I still think that we've got a long

way to go. With dealing with mental health
dealing with anxiety depression and that's

a lot of things ah that Megan deals with right?
She's a therapist. She got her. Master's degree

in social work from the University Of Maryland
Baltimore and she's worked in Baltimore and

in Dc in the foster care system with adults
with. Children for people from all walks of

life. Ah, she she got a dream job being a
therapist eventually starting their own clinic

clarity wellness clarity wellness solutions
I'm really excited because me and my sister

often talk about mental health and. How important
it is really address it and I still feel like

there's a stigma to talking about. Basically
your feelings. There's still a stigma with

men to talk about your feelings like that's
some sort of weakness and and I remember the

last person I dated. Um I opened up. Ah, talk
about feelings which has often been a a a

issue that people that have been in relationships
with me has said that that that I don't open

up and I don't talk and and and during this
and enlightening enlightenment period I that

I've come to Um, you know i.

02:05.40
Bruce Anthony

Opened up and shared feelings at the same
time I would share feelings I would also say

you know I ain't no punk I still slap somebody
on the street and and while that may be true.

Um, it was a facade that I was putting on
not a facade It's not a facade because it's

real life. It's. Truth I will spec somebody
in the street say some slick talk about my

feelings doesn't make me weak but there's
still that history of expressing emotions

and feelings and the connotation of it being
weakness that I that I'm still combating right.

That that I would have to show my masculinity
because I was expression expressing emotions

and feelings and there's this dichotomy of
yeah I don't want to be that closed off person.

But I don't want to be portrayed. Are are
assumed to be weak because I express emotions

and and that's a huge problem in communities
right? And and I can't even say it's just

people of color because I know other races
that aren't of color white. That that that

deal with the same things. They don't talk
about emotions they bottle up and that's reason

why everybody die in a heart attacks and and
and strokes because you holding it all in

and you busted so I'm really excited to talk
to Megan about how just one therapy her background

how she got to where she is in her career
and.

03:36.19
Bruce Anthony

Hopefully things that will help people 1 come
to the realization that talking about your

feelings isn't a sign of weakness is actually
a sign of strength. It means that you're trying

to better yourself any anytime you're trying
to better yourself. That's never a weakness

and ways in which people can. Break down those
barriers and go get therapy but without further

ado here's the interview.

00:57.88
Bruce Anthony

Megan thank you for joining me today.

00:59.89
Megan McKernan LCSW

Um I Bruce thank you so much for having me
I am rocking my it's school to talk about

mental health hoodings I know you like wearing
hoodies. So I had to join in in that theme.

01:11.95
Bruce Anthony

I'm glad that you picked up on that. Not a
lot of people pick on pick up on the fact

that I'm wearing a different hoodie and a
different color each and every episode Megan

thank you, you know this is very important
what we're going to talk about today mental

health.

01:21.94
Megan McKernan LCSW

Um, you're welcome.

01:28.14
Bruce Anthony

And it's funny because me and my sister just
filmed an episode last night and we were talking

about my personal dealings with mental health
and the fact that I had a panic attack when

I was in high school they had to rush me to
the hospital. But this was 1996 and they had

no idea of what was actually going on and
no help afterwards. So.

01:44.65
Megan McKernan LCSW

Great.

01:47.78
Bruce Anthony

And and talking about myself. Let's talk.
Let's get to you Can you tell me a little

bit about your background and how you became
interested in pursuing a career social work

and mental health.

01:58.51
Megan McKernan LCSW

Um, of course so I feel like I fall into that
cliche of this field really chose me rather

than I chose it and that is due to my own
family trauma my own history of family trauma.

Um, that starts way back. When my perternal
grandmother died by suicide when my dad was

only six years old and that has totally sent
ripples of ripple effects has totally shaped

my entire family my entire life and so being
raised by a traumatized individual in my dad

because he.

02:16.70
Bruce Anthony

A.

02:34.97
Megan McKernan LCSW

Was not supported in that awful horrendous
trauma you know created secondary trauma as

well as just my own trauma with emotional
neglect and such and so I was always aware

of my my feelings but I didn't know how to
handle them how to manage them. Had absolutely

no model or guide for how to do that You know
I would I was like I said being raised by

a traumatized individual himself so that just
created so much complex Ptsd is what I've

learned in grad school is what that's called
and that is. Due to just this long term. That's

just how it was um, it wasn't like a specific
incident Really, It's just when you're you

know when you're raised by an alcoholic Rageholic
is is how I would describe them. Um. Just

creates its own set of circumstances and so
I knew that I wanted to major in psychology

when I went to college I wanted to learn as
much as I could about what was going on why

the people around me were behaving the way
they were behaving and acting.

03:44.87
Bruce Anthony

A a.

03:47.99
Megan McKernan LCSW

And then it wasn't until right before my senior
year of college that I was introduced to social

work and so I said awesome I'm doing this
went right to grad school god my Ms. w and

was hoping that I could somehow go right into
therapy and that wasn't the case I didn't

have enough experience and then that was fine
and I knew that so I pivoted to. Foster care.

Um, and I was working in foster care in the
in Washington d c for several months until

that contract ended and then I was licensing
foster parents and then it was a few years

later that I finally got into a clinic.

04:09.22
Bruce Anthony

Um, a.

04:23.20
Megan McKernan LCSW

And I was able to do therapy and got my clinical
hours. Got my clinical license and it was

until June Twenty is when I decided to start
my own practice and that's when I started

clarity wellness solutions.

04:36.31
Bruce Anthony

Okay, so as we said during that the pre-show
I was going to perhaps detour This is why

those moments where I was going to detour
because you brought up your father was he

an only child did he have siblings to the
siblings.

04:45.88
Megan McKernan LCSW

Yeah, totally. Um.

04:55.18
Bruce Anthony

Show similar ah similar symptoms that he did
and um your mother and father. How was that

relationship growing up dealing with his trauma.

05:06.82
Megan McKernan LCSW

Um, yeah, he has a younger sister my aunt's
only 2 years younger than him. Um, and they

were you know they both took very different
paths of how they dealt with their trauma

I think my aunt tried to get help and was
much more. External in her voicing her need

for help whereas my dad internalized it all
and that's why he self-medicated with alcohol

and so he would he was more successful. However,
um, career wise and so he would say that.

05:27.70
Bruce Anthony

A.

05:41.21
Bruce Anthony

Are.

05:41.34
Megan McKernan LCSW

He handled it better. However I don't think
that's the case because while he was successful.

Career wise he was you know, um, like emotionally
harming his kids myself and my sister. So.

06:00.95
Megan McKernan LCSW

My aunt didn't have children but she is a
great. She's a great Auntie and she you know

loves us as her own and just because she did
not like have her own family and kids. However,

that's you know she experienced so much judgment
because of that which is not fair because

in my opinion she is.

06:03.45
Bruce Anthony

A.

06:15.37
Bruce Anthony

There.

06:20.36
Megan McKernan LCSW

More mentally healthy than my dad is and I've
had like I've had to literally go no contact

with him five years ago because things just
kept escalating with his own issues that he

refused to deal with um.

06:22.48
Bruce Anthony

Um, hey.

06:32.62
Bruce Anthony

Yeah.

06:38.27
Megan McKernan LCSW

So which is unfortunately it got worse for
him. Got better for her and so it's just yeah,

very very different paths of how they dealt
with their trauma. My my mom and dad somehow

stayed married for like twenty something years
and got divorced.

06:42.70
Bruce Anthony

It's something.

06:57.10
Megan McKernan LCSW

12 and so that was its own traumatic situation
just because my dad leaned on me and kind

of treated me as his therapist during that
time and that was just obviously too much

and so.

07:07.71
Bruce Anthony

Hey.

07:15.36
Megan McKernan LCSW

Yeah, he he eventually remarried and whatever.
Um it was but yeah it was five years ago his

alcoholism just came to a head and I don't
want to get into details but it was just so

bad that I was like um me I'm done. Um I have.

07:24.34
Bruce Anthony

Um, welcome. Yeah.

07:32.12
Megan McKernan LCSW

Have now an eight year old daughter I'm married
and I was really worried about exposing my

own family to you know all that stuff and
so that was a big part of why I had to say

like.

07:36.12
Bruce Anthony

A.

07:45.85
Megan McKernan LCSW

Right? I'm going to set the strongest boundary
I've ever had to set and I didn't want to

like that's why it was so traumatizing because
I didn't want to like you never want to go

no contact with a parent. Um, but when it's
just so bad when they are so emotionally volatile

that you know.

07:55.27
Bruce Anthony

Right.

08:05.68
Megan McKernan LCSW

Like they're screaming at your husband in
a restaurant like it's just I can't I can't

deal with that anymore. Um, and so I've had
to separate myself kind of love him from a

distance and you know. Hope that he gets help
the help that he needs and it's it's allowed

me to heal myself and realize that the way
I was raised wasn't right just because even

though I was raised in Bougie Howard County
I had I had everything I needed physically.

Um.

08:43.15
Megan McKernan LCSW

Emotionally, it was another story though.
So it you know I'm I'm healing from that and

it's a lot easier and not having set that
boundary. Unfortunately so I'm now on a path

to heal my mom. My sister and I as a unit
and I'm.

08:50.41
Bruce Anthony

There.

09:01.61
Megan McKernan LCSW

In the process of pursuing family therapy
for the 3 of us so that we can figure out

how to navigate this very strict boundary
that we've set because I know my mom has a

hard time with that at times even though she
understands it's still just like weird for

her and so i'm.

09:04.30
Bruce Anthony

Ah, okay.

09:19.38
Megan McKernan LCSW

That's my like main goal for this year is
to get the 3 of us some family therapy to

really heal from so much and then figure out
how we can move forward.

09:27.65
Bruce Anthony

All that Yeah I tell friends of mine that
have kids I don't have any kids. Ah but I

tell friends of mine that have kids that I
recognize that they have some mental health

issues and I say to them all the time hey
you may think that you're hiding it. From

your children. But trust me, you aren't because
kids are very perceptive. They are They are

way more perceptive than we give them credit
for and I was like you're going to mess up

your kids Trust me, you're going to mess up
your kids you need to deal with what you're

doing through therapy.

09:54.45
Megan McKernan LCSW

Um I agree.

10:04.14
Bruce Anthony

So that you don't pass it on your kids and
some of them listen because I explain to them

like how they will affect their kids in the
future some most of time. It's men of my generation

and older you know, late 30 s and older. It's
still like trying to hammer home. How important

therapy is but they they they don't get it.
They just don't get it. You brought up something.

Ah I think it's important to touch on so you
said you worked in the foster care system

in Washington d c. I'm going to assume from
your background that the demographic that

you worked with where there's a lot of latino
and black people people of color. Um, how

did you get started in.

10:45.18
Megan McKernan LCSW

Um, yeah.

10:49.59
Bruce Anthony

Specializing and treating anxiety depression
and Adhd in those communities.

10:56.11
Megan McKernan LCSW

Um, I just kind of fell into it. Yeah I think
just working in that that area that city.

Yeah, all my clients all my foster care clients
have to be black and african american and

then when I moved over to the clinic in Hyattsville.
All of those clients happen to be latino and

so I just it was such a humbling experience
and I just appreciated and still appreciate

being the racial minority at work I really
I don't know I really liked I really love

that and.

11:24.98
Bruce Anthony

A.

11:30.83
Megan McKernan LCSW

Relished in that once I was once I was there
and in it and I feel like you know I learned

quickly I adapted quickly and I came from
the perspective of you know I'm here to help

you as best as I can but I also need to learn
from you I'm not entirely the expert in everything.

11:48.10
Bruce Anthony

A.

11:50.39
Megan McKernan LCSW

Definitely not your culture so like help me
help you I'm going to meet you where you're

at and just try to be as like supportive and
hold space for you for whatever that means

and. Once I moved over to licensing foster
parents. Yeah, all my foster parents were

black and african american and I just let
them vent about how crappy this system was

that they were dealing with um because a lot
of them were trying to care for their their.

Um. Their own family members whether it was
nieces nephews grandchildren very close family

friends like they were having to navigate
so much challenges just to care for their

family members and so whatever I could do
to use my own privilege to help them navigate

that system like That's what I was going to
do and that's what was really important to

me and that's what I found like really fulfilling
in those years leading up to when I was like

actually doing therapy because that was more
case management type. But I I still you know

took the time and I really enjoyed that time
of just talking.

12:54.47
Bruce Anthony

A.

13:02.17
Megan McKernan LCSW

Those clients those foster parents just to
give them space to talk invent and tell their

story because I don't think they had another
opportunity to do that. So.

13:12.29
Bruce Anthony

Well so you bring that up. What are some of
the challenges and barriers that people from

the latino and black community face when getting
mental health resources.

13:25.78
Megan McKernan LCSW

Um I think it's just navigating this health
care system in general I Don't think it's

set up for anyone to really succeed and even
myself like.

13:27.30
Bruce Anthony

Hey.

13:39.80
Megan McKernan LCSW

As a white female like even as a female I
don't feel like I'm even taken seriously when

I go to doctor's appointments. So I can't
imagine as a person of color not being taken

seriously like at all. Um and that that's
just that's just what I like like being like

invalidated and.

13:50.90
Bruce Anthony

When you mean what do you mean by by being
taken seriously.

13:58.50
Megan McKernan LCSW

Saying like this is what I'm dealing with
being like ok are you sure? that's it and

like not being believed about my own stuff.
Um, and just yeah I just have such a hard

time with yeah, not.

13:58.70
Bruce Anthony

Here.

14:08.44
Bruce Anthony

A.

14:15.40
Megan McKernan LCSW

Being taken seriously not being trusted being
invalidated and I've experienced that myself

just in like in navigating health care or
even mental Health care. Um, and so if I've

experienced that I can't imagine what people
of color experience when they're navigating

this system because. Like as a client or a
patient if you're coming in like they know

best like you as the client patient know best
about yourself and so I just don't understand

why as a provider whether it's physical or
mental health Why you wouldn't. Believe the

client or patient and what they're saying
what you're experiencing and what they need

and like listen to them and oh you need this?
Okay um, and I just feel like I had to act

as a translator so much. Not just for my Spanish
speaking clients either even like.

15:04.71
Bruce Anthony

Yeah, yeah.

15:12.50
Megan McKernan LCSW

With my black lines like not just trying to
I don't know force your way in like no, they

need this like no, you're not hearing what
they need they are saying they need this,

You're Misunderstanding. You're you know,
just so many like miscommunications. Even

in the school system. It's both both of those
the school system as well as the Health care

system mental and physical health care I just
felt like I being an advocate translator or

advocate is probably a better word for it.
Um, just trying to help them advocate of like.

15:38.32
Bruce Anthony

Hear me.

15:47.87
Megan McKernan LCSW

No, this is what they need. You are not hearing
what they are saying. This is what they need,

please help them? um because they would get
so frustrated and want to give up and I would

too and can't when it's your children. You
know your child's like health and life at

risk.

15:58.29
Bruce Anthony

So. Exactly so with these barriers and challenges
in place just from the Health care standpoint

and obviously we're dealing with not only
the children who are experiencing trauma and

ptsd.

16:05.80
Megan McKernan LCSW

So.

16:22.37
Bruce Anthony

Ah, but also the parents as well. What are
some of the techniques and interventions you

use to help them through all of that.

16:33.52
Megan McKernan LCSW

I I feel like initially it's um, trying to
stress the importance of just talking about

it and and that's why I feel like I learned
so many. Um, very like therapy 1 to one techniques

in talking to those foster parents like it's
okay to feel your feelings and to let that

out and you don't have to hold it in and act
like everything is okay because that's what

I was taught by my. Boomer generation parents
is yeah, you just have to like push through

it and act like everything is fine and I can't
do that and I don't expect anyone to do that?

Really? Um, and so first and foremost just
being like it's okay that you're frustrated

That's why it's like I'm so and. Validating
feelings is so important to me and and just

validating how difficult this is how this
isn't easy. This isn't a fair system that

they're working with and just trying to validate
that like that is real that that you feel

what you're feeling and that struggle is is
real. You're not making that up.

17:44.42
Bruce Anthony

In here.

17:46.20
Megan McKernan LCSW

Um, and just trying to normalize their feelings
and validate them and say like hey it's okay

that you feel this way So because of that
What can we do to help you feel like yourself

again and. That's that's different for everybody
but just kind of forcing them to think about

it. You know they're you're taking all this
time and energy caring for these foster children.

But what about you, you know? So. It's okay
to like sit and talk and process.

18:15.30
Bruce Anthony

Yeah, yeah.

18:23.33
Megan McKernan LCSW

And feel your feelings and then after that
like what's going to help you feel like you

again and then how can I How can I help do
that. Yeah as a social worker. It's my body

soul we're looking at at everything you know,
like what? what? Ah how can we help you with

any sort of. Lifestyle Habit that you're trying
to change. Yeah.

18:47.12
Bruce Anthony

That's so interesting I'm going to throw my
friends under than bus. But I'm not going

to say their names but they know exactly who
I'm talking about and um so we were talking

about music and I use music so alcohol but
I use music ah to really put me in a ah peaceful.

19:03.80
Megan McKernan LCSW

Yes, love it. Yes.

19:05.15
Bruce Anthony

Mind State right? and I will go back and listen
to old Jams right? like ah and I say old jams

to us. They're not that old because they are
a generation but to these Gen Gen Zers It's

really old school stuff. So I'll go back and
listen to.

19:17.53
Megan McKernan LCSW

Um, me Yes, yes.

19:22.41
Bruce Anthony

Eighty S R and B and ninety s hip hop and
it'll take me to a certain time and there

are memories associated with that music. Um,
and it'll it'll take me to a happy place and

I said this to my 2 male friends who are the
same age as I am in their early 40 s and they

were like. What what are you talking about
feelings associated with music. This is the

male toxic answer that they gave me you sound
like a real female right now and and and I

told them in the text message Thread. You
guys are really ignorant I got.

19:44.42
Megan McKernan LCSW

I know. Ah.

19:58.50
Bruce Anthony

And and this is my generation and there's
something about trying to to not school them

but enlighten them to say hey man it's okay
to feel feelings that doesn't make you weak

at all matter of fact, that makes this idea
of being the strong silent type those people.

20:09.45
Megan McKernan LCSW

No.

20:16.70
Bruce Anthony

Died early of heart attacks and strokes and
things of that nature I don't want to go out

like that. Um, so mindfulness and and mental
health and and and a healthy wellbeing is

is super dope is super important and I'm glad
that you talk to to your clients about that.

But that leads me.

20:18.11
Megan McKernan LCSW

Thank you? no.

20:35.36
Bruce Anthony

To another question I I brought up how I listen
to music but what role does mindfulness play

in promoting mental mental health and wellbeing
and what are I use Music. What are some of

the ah tips and techniques for practicing
mindfulness that can help to deal with. It

doesn't necessarily have to be trauma ptsd
if you have trauma and ptsd you need to speak

to somebody. You need to speak to a licensed
therapist. But if you're just going through

something What are some mindfulness techniques
and practices people could use.

20:59.96
Megan McKernan LCSW

Absolutely.

21:10.43
Megan McKernan LCSW

Yeah, so when when I was working and commuting
to Dc and Hydesville I I feel like I fell

into a very autopilot system routine where
I was I was not mindful I was not aware of

what I was doing I was just. Go go go like
you know do your work. Get home. Do you know,

go to bed. Do it again and when I was introduced
to mindfulness which was more in. I guess

was like 2019 when I started ramping up my
own personal therapy after I went no contact

with my dad I ramped up my own personal individual
therapy and one of my therapists introduced

me to meditation and mindfulness and I was
so hooked after that I was like oh my gosh

this is amazing. And really it was just like
a 5 minute meditation that she did because

I couldn't stop crying and um it it calmed
me so much and just doing that like I had

to do it myself. You know I had heard of meditation
and kind of just didn't think.

22:21.59
Megan McKernan LCSW

I could do it I don't know I just shouldn't
really I was just didn't know enough about

it and was like I not experienced to do that
so I had a therapist guide me through one

one day and realize that oh that's all there
is to it. Ok, that's fine I can do this? yeah

and she was told me about an app and I was
like wow this is easier than I thought.

22:25.45
Bruce Anthony

Avy.

22:41.70
Megan McKernan LCSW

And so I realized that yeah really just like
taking a few minutes to just breathe just

focus on your breath. You know, just stop
going going going which was hard for me because

again, that's all I Knew that's all I was
taught. That's all I saw from my. My own workaholic

parents Both my parents worked my whole life
and so all I knew was to keep going and when

I realized like actually slowing down and
taking a few minutes to breathe actually helps

that yeah that was life changing for me and.

23:13.20
Bruce Anthony

So I've tried meditation I have a very difficult
time actually cutting out everything and meditating

because my mind my mind just races all day
long. But.

23:21.64
Megan McKernan LCSW

Yeah.

23:30.10
Bruce Anthony

I Guess from what I was told me when I zone
out listening to music is kind of like meditation.

23:33.77
Megan McKernan LCSW

It is it is and that's a thing that's there
are so many different yes like creative ways

that you can practice Mindfulness. And yeah,
when you are listening to music and you're

kind of in the zone and it takes you like
you said to a happy place like that is your

mindfulness time Absolutely and so it doesn't
have to be. Sitting and meditating because

that does take some training I think but whatever
activity you can find like I have a client

who likes to fish. Yeah, phishing is your
mindfulness time. Whatever activity that you're

doing that is just bringing you a sense of
calm and peace like.

24:10.49
Bruce Anthony

Could it be I'm talking personally here could
it be video games even if the video games

make you angry then you slam controllers but
it still takes your mind away from.

24:10.61
Megan McKernan LCSW

Truly That's all that matters. But.

24:26.31
Bruce Anthony

The stressors that that you might be dealing
with that that is that could that technically

technically be considered meditation as well.
Like I know like running and sometimes like

I often use working out as as well like I
work out all the time. So I go to the gym

and and I can get in.

24:34.58
Megan McKernan LCSW

Um, no.

24:39.67
Megan McKernan LCSW

And.

24:46.60
Bruce Anthony

Focus in on the workout and that's where my
mind is at that particular time but video

games I Know that's ah, a growing not go say
epidemic. But maybe because there is an addiction

that is associated with that. But at the same
time I think a lot of people are using and

I know for a fact people are using that.

24:50.00
Megan McKernan LCSW

Yeah.

25:04.31
Megan McKernan LCSW

Yeah I'm married to someone who uses it as
an escape. So I a hundred percent get that

I just think it is a matter of moderation
and as yeah as long as it is not you know,

causing the rest of your life.

25:04.75
Bruce Anthony

As an escape.

25:16.28
Bruce Anthony

Ah.

25:22.83
Megan McKernan LCSW

Disruptions Then yeah, um I know it is a really
good way to escape and really like yeah, get

out of your daily stressors and so as long
as it's not interrupting other things. You

know what? I mean.

25:40.81
Megan McKernan LCSW

That's how I feel about most I don't want
to say vices because yes there are things

that are truly unhealthy for you and I'm not
going to advocate for that. But I don't know

most Hobbies I guess or interest activities
if it's. If. It's not harming you or anyone.

It's not causing you your daily disruptions.
It's not affecting your work or whatever responsibilities

you have to have and it's bringing you peace
and joy then great.

26:08.66
Bruce Anthony

So The main point in this conversation ladies
and gentlemen 1 if you have trauma you don't

even know if you have ptsd you need a little
you need to speak to a license therapist,

especially if you have kids and 2 if you're
going through something. Find an outlet a

mindful outlet that calms you brings you joy
brings you peace.

26:40.19
Bruce Anthony

So Megan you said that you started your clinic
ah clarity wellness solutions and you said

it was June 2020 so you started it in the
middle of the pandemic.

26:48.29
Megan McKernan LCSW

Um, yeah, yes and that was sort of by accident
because that fall was when my daughter was

going to start Kindergarten anyway and I didn't
want to commute I didn't want to make this

long.

27:03.99
Megan McKernan LCSW

Commute to DC in Prince Georges County anymore
so I always had it in my mind like all right

I'm going to do my own thing at some point
and be closer to home closer to the Baltimore

area. Um, but then covid happened we had to
go on lockdown and everything went virtual

and I had had a co-worker.

27:22.60
Megan McKernan LCSW

Who even before covered hit was trying to
encourage me to just do my practice virtually

and I just like couldn't wrap my head around
it I was like I don't know how I'm going to

I'm going to do that. Um, and it literally
took the pandemic where we were forced to

do everything online and we. Got really familiar
with Zoom and Google meet and doing sessions

that way and so since it became normalized
very quickly I thought all right I think I'm

going to do this virtually then and so that's
what I did I started the the practice and

only using psychology today to really.

27:51.35
Bruce Anthony

A.

28:00.56
Megan McKernan LCSW

Market myself. Um, as well as just being in
the insurance portals if you will for clients

and I just kind of like waited I was also
still you know supervising it the hyatdsville

clinic I still saw some clients there. Um.
So was kind of doing both while I was starting

my own practice but those clients came quickly
a lot quicker than I anticipated and so I

forget exactly what month but sometime later
in 2020 is when I recruited. 1 of my former

co-workers at the clinic to contract with
me to um, see clients with me and so she's

gone on to start her own practice and it's
a it's so awesome. A lot of clinicians that

have worked for me in the past have gone on
to do their own practices and that.

28:38.50
Bruce Anthony

What is.

28:55.86
Megan McKernan LCSW

The best thing that's all I want because we
need more clinicians we need more mental health

practitioners. So the more people I can help
supervise and you know help um mentor if you

will like I love doing that as well. So. Alicia
was my first clinician contractor clinician

and now I have 8 contractors that work for
me and it's wonderful I love it. Um, yeah,

and it's all virtual and because of that though
we're able to see anyone in the state of Maryland

if if we accept their insurance or if they
want to pay our.

29:16.80
Bruce Anthony

Wow.

29:31.62
Megan McKernan LCSW

Out of pocket rate. That's fine I feel like
I keep it relatively low compared to some

other clinics in my area so that's that's
where we are yeah and I have um, an administrative

assistant who helps me with my social media
presence because I would not do that on my

own at All. So. Very nice having help for
that.

29:51.96
Bruce Anthony

And you're not limited to just solely Maryland
that's I was talking to somebody about virtual

and the pandemic sucked but there's a part
of it that came out of it that is better for

people I think virtual learning working. Is
easier for people because you know you traveled

down in Dc I'm in Dc the traffic in this area
is ridiculous it it I I am 5 minutes away

from the washington monument. That's how long
it takes in a car.

30:18.97
Megan McKernan LCSW

Yes, yeah I.

30:30.12
Bruce Anthony

If there was no traffic. But since there is
traffic. It's 25 to 30 minutes and so people

commuting back and forth for work sometimes
their round trip in this area to go ten miles

would be 2 hours right so um that's that's
one of the things that this pandemic that's

one of the bright spots that came out this
pandemic is that.

30:33.94
Megan McKernan LCSW

Um, it's exactly right.

30:48.10
Megan McKernan LCSW

And.

30:49.74
Bruce Anthony

Employers realize that people could work from
home and and actually be more productive and

your clinic isn't restricted to Maryland because
it's virtual. It's national. It's international.

It can it can go you can see anybody anywhere
and that's beautiful, but my question is it.

31:00.80
Megan McKernan LCSW

In and.

31:09.40
Bruce Anthony

Your your clinic grew at a time where the
world was slowing down and it seemed like

not only the fact that we were in lockdown
people were depressed and and dealing with

emotional and mental health because of that.
But because of the slowdown did you see it

in your experience that because their minds
had to slow down during a pandemic that it

wasn't that they saw that their mental health
wasn't just the cause of the pandemic but

also stuff that they had been dealing with.
Throughout life that they just didn't realize

it because they were living in the Rat race.

31:45.58
Megan McKernan LCSW

I think so yes, my own my own autopilot. Absolutely
I was stuck in that so much and I think it's

a the pandemic to you know, switching to working
from home for the first time and now I've

literally you know I'm I've turned. My guestroom
into my home office and I've been here for

3 years now and I cannot believe I'm saying
that because that just sounds so wild that

that much time has already gone by because
I was in that autopilot commute mode zone

for so long and then when I got out of it
I was like. Yeah there's a there's a lot here

that we kind of have to look at and work on
and so I do think that's what it was for a

lot of people would force us to slow down
and it shined a light on what you were maybe

neglecting with your own physical and mental
health and so I do think it worked out. For

me timing wise yeah I happened to get a diagnosis
of crohn's disease at the end of 2019 and

so I was dealing with that at the start of
the pandemic as well trying to figure out.

32:49.97
Bruce Anthony

Oh.

32:59.97
Bruce Anthony

A.

33:00.54
Megan McKernan LCSW

What would help me Nutrition is g I doctors
all kinds of stuff. Um, and if I was commuting

while there's no way I would have been able
to like get through all that and so yeah,

paint that it helped me that forcing me to
slow down. Did me a lot of favors for sure.

33:19.29
Bruce Anthony

And do you see what are some of the differences
with meeting people in person and meeting

people virtually. Obviously if you're meeting
people Virtually, you can see a lot more people

because your time isn't restricted through
transportation but is there a.

33:27.71
Megan McKernan LCSW

I.

33:37.75
Bruce Anthony

Is there something that's lost with not being
there or is there no real difference as far

as treating people virtually or in person.

33:47.34
Megan McKernan LCSW

That's 1 thing. Yes I've been able to see
so many more clients per per day per week

virtually versus when I was I used to do home
visits so I was driving. You know all around

the county and around Dc going to homes and
so yeah, don't see as many people. But yes

I do I miss being in personson at times. Um,
but truth be told Bruce as long as you're

your internet your connect. The connection
is working. And you can hear and see each

other like not that much is lost in my opinion.
That's what I've found and in doing this for

3 years now like I I do see 1 client in person
at a library. Um, once a week but other than

that, no one has really been like. Clamoring
to come back to the office. Um, you know some

are like if you have if you get one one day
greet but if not like this works wonderfully

and so I guess that's what I kind of you know
every once in a while I'll try to pull my

clients like is this still working for you
is this not and they're like.

34:46.59
Bruce Anthony

Um, yeah here.

34:57.30
Megan McKernan LCSW

This is great. So until I have like multiple
multiple clients saying like this isn't working

for me anymore that I'm just going to try
to do this as long as I can.

35:07.90
Bruce Anthony

Yeah, don't think you're gonna I don't think
you're gonna see that I think that that we've

moved towards this being the way that we communicate.
Um I don't even talk on the phone anymore.

You either text me or Facetime me that's those
are the 2 options that actually hold the phone

to my ear. That's.

35:18.92
Megan McKernan LCSW

Um, right totally had to thing in the past?
yeah.

35:24.65
Bruce Anthony

Not happening anymore. So yeah, um, how do
you? How do we work? How do we as a community

work towards improving access to mental health
resources for everyone regardless of their

background or social economic status.

35:44.60
Megan McKernan LCSW

This is such a hard question for me because
I feel like it really has to it has to start

at the top. It really is a policy level thing
and coming from a social work background.

There's another half of social work that is
you know Mac Policy Community organization

and. You know sometimes I really want to get
involved at that level where you know trying

trying to like actually enact some change
at the government if you will level because

that's where all these issues stem from is
you know. We're having this conversation because

we live in the United States whereas if we
were in a country in Europe and when we had

universal health care and in theory everyone's
therapy would be covered and I'm just dealing

with 1 entity versus 5 or 6 different. Insurance
company. You know, like to me, it's that's

a whole different ballgame but because we're
where we are and we have to navigate this

system best that we can I I don't know I don't
know. I have I want to get involved at the

at the policy level at some point because
I just I think that's where we can make the

most change in the meantime for myself with
my own practice. That's why I've tried to

um panel with as many insurance companies
as possible as well as you know, taking out

a pocket of course.

37:14.61
Megan McKernan LCSW

But and my mind and my my theory is if I can
panel with as many insurance companies as

possible then maybe that means I can see as
many people as possible regardless of what

their background is um.

37:28.72
Bruce Anthony

So this is a question and I I should have
probably looked this up before the interview

but I didn't think of this question until
just now because you were talking about insurances

does medicaid and Medicare Cover therapy.

37:44.17
Megan McKernan LCSW

It does yeah, the clinic that I worked for
in Hyattsville was all it was a medicaid based

clinic so they were all medicaid clients.
Yup and so if you um, you know are if you

qualify for medicaid if you're at that.

37:46.93
Bruce Anthony

Okay, so it does Um, okay.

38:03.10
Megan McKernan LCSW

That level where you qualify for medicaid.
Then yes, you can actually get your therapy

covered 100% yeah

38:11.71
Bruce Anthony

And for those people out there that are listening
because while I'm not on Medicaid or medicare

but if I was on Medicaid or Medicare um, but
wouldn't even know how to start to get therapy.

What are some of the processes since you've
had that experience working with medicaid.

38:28.20
Megan McKernan LCSW

Um, you know.

38:28.25
Bruce Anthony

and and I'm assumed since medicaid did in
Medicare will also do it. Um, what are some

of the processes for people that are on Medicaid
Medicare ah to to get therapy because they

might not know one that it's an option for
them and 2 that if they do know it's an option

how to go about.

38:41.90
Megan McKernan LCSW

Do.

38:47.49
Bruce Anthony

Securing therapy.

38:47.69
Megan McKernan LCSW

Um, yeah I I think I always mention websites
like psychology today.com because that's where

I kind of started. That's where you that's
your therapy therapy therapist directory and

there are others out there besides that 1
um, but you can actually search by insurance

and that's so whether you're at psychology
today.com or another therapist. Directory

you can filter out what insurance is the therapist
accept and so search by medicaid search by

care first whatever you have. That way you
have you know oh this person actually will

accept my my insurance and to me that's the
first and foremost important thing is to just

find someone in your network and you can go
through your own insurances. Portal and you

have to be a little bit more I guess tech
savvy for that. But if you have your insurance

card. They'll have a website on there and
they'll say you know your member portal go

here and you can look up providers for anything
whether it's therapy or physical health. Um.

But otherwise yeah, but otherwise just searching
any sort of therapy directory and filtering

out their insurance so that you know exactly
that they're going to take what you have okay.

40:12.73
Bruce Anthony

For those people that might not have access
to computers or cell phones to to Google Google

is your friend folks to Google this information
are there local services centers or something

like that that people can go to. Um.

40:17.40
Megan McKernan LCSW

Rain.

40:27.94
Megan McKernan LCSW

Of course is it. You.

40:30.47
Bruce Anthony

To help get information and help for therapy.

40:33.78
Megan McKernan LCSW

Yeah, your department of social services definitely
is is where you're going because most likely

if you're connected through medicaid then
hopefully if you know. Hopefully you're connected

through a social worker or a case worker through
your local department of social services and

so if you are like go right to them. Yeah,
go right? to? Whoever helps you register for

your medicaid and they will absolutely help
you navigate where to go because it's so much

easier talking to somebody than trying to
navigate. Computers. So I agree with that.

41:11.55
Bruce Anthony

So Finally in my my final question and I feel
like all these questions were important and

all the answers were important. But as I said
earlier I have some friends out there. Um,

and and I pointed out too. But I have. Also
family members. Um, that need mental health

and need therapy What advice would you give
to someone who is struggling with mental health

but may feel resistant or reluctant to seek
help.

41:45.42
Megan McKernan LCSW

My advice is always to please don't give up
please don't give up on advocating for yourself.

I've wanted to so many times but it's your
health is worth it. Your mental health is

worth it and. Even if it's hard even if you
run into someone You don't vibe with or mesh

with right away keep trying keep searching
for providers that that you connect with and

just and don't give up because your piece
is worth it.

42:13.54
Bruce Anthony

I love that advocating for yourself. Wow,
that's a lot of people don't do that a lot

of people will help others and neglect themselves
so often a lot of people will give advice

to people. And say hey you probably need to
talk to somebody won't follow their own advice.

Um, so I love that advocating for yourself.
I love that that I think that's a great way

to end episode Megan I want to thank you once
again for joining me today and agreeing to

do this interview I feel like.

42:33.20
Megan McKernan LCSW

Mean.

42:49.27
Bruce Anthony

What you had to say was so very important
and so vital especially in today's day and

age where mental health is starting to get
into recognition that it deserves but we're

still not there yet and we still need to keep
pushing forward. So I want to thank you again

for coming and talking to me today.

43:05.42
Megan McKernan LCSW

Thank you so much Bruce I really appreciate
it. This was wonderful.

43:08.64
Bruce Anthony

Thank you so much.

04:20.53
Bruce Anthony

Wow I really think that was I want to thank
Megan for coming on the show and talking to

us I want to thank Megan for opening up and
expressing ah her history and things that

she's had to deal with in her life and that
slogan advocating for self.

04:38.12
Bruce Anthony

That's that's my that's my new thing. Um,
yeah I really do believe that people need

to start advocating for self not on a self-absorbed
selfish level. But you know my sister often

brings up putting up boundaries and and I
will say in my personal life I haven't been

good at putting up boundaries right? like
of telling people. You know what I don't feel

like doing this or my problem is is I'll drink
get happy and then everything sounds like

a good idea and true for the matter is I don't
want to do none of it but like none of it.

Um, but. Setting boundaries is good and that's
a part of your mental health people that know

me know that I have Sunday fun Sunday fun
day is my day to relax and and do what I do

and what could that mean that could literally
mean just sitting around watching superhero

Tv shows and movies drink a champagne cuddling
with my dog. It's a way to recenter myself

to prepare myself for the work week. Ah, whatever
I have going on I think that that's important

I often did I didn't realize talking to Megan
I didn't realize that the things that I do

is a form of meditation and I put that in
quotes for those people that just listen to

the audio. But. You know me zoning out listening
to music being in my vibe me going for my

walks you know I love going for for a walk
because the walks clear my mind like I can

run through a bunch of things in my mind but
it it brings clarity working out those that

know me.

06:06.40
Bruce Anthony

No I work out like six days a week and I'm
in the gym anybody that sees me in the gym

knows I'm in there hitting it hard. Yeah,
that's to work out the aggression because

like I said I got a lot of anger and and I
will smack somebody on the street but no,

but like and and playing my video games. You
know all this the stuff is is not a mix. Gate

but a way to center myself. My sister brought
up you know back in the day I used to have

brother and sister day. It was doing the same
things over and over again a way to center

myself I didn't realize that these were things
that I were doing that I was doing to center

myself. But I feel like that's important it's
important to center yourself you have good

mental health because the last thing that
you want to do is let your mental health become

so poor. Ah let your anxiety or your depression
turn so poor for me, it would turn into anger

and then anger would be expressed outwardly
my friends would tell you back in the day

that I was a hothead. Now that I'm starting
to reexamine my life and and think about through

work my anxiety and things of that nature
I realized that that outward expression of

anger was just the anxiety and and depression
building up inside of me to the point where

I couldn't take anymore. Um. And and and the
outlet was I'm going blow up on somebody.

But but now that I'm older and now that there's
more access to knowledge of improving yourself

and mental health people can do better.

07:39.46
Bruce Anthony

Then having negative outlets and I think Megan
brought up really clear examples of ways to

have positive outlets to deal with anxiety
and depression and and if you and talking

to somebody right? like talking to a health
professional ah is very very important. You

know people in the black community. Always
want to say well I'm gonna pray on it. God

gave a therapist for a reason so so it's good
to talk to a therapist to work through your

issues and contrary to what everybody believes
you dealing with it by. Not dealing with it

is not dealing with it and it's still there
haunting you and affecting you whether you

want to admit it or not go out seek help talk
to somebody. There's nothing wrong with that.

There's no sign of weakness that's a sign
of strength. But on that note during. mental

health awareness a month which Megan ah, let
me know about it's not only women's month

but it's also mental health awareness month
check in on yourself. It's important and on

that note I holla.