From Skating to Law: Heather O'Connor's Journey Through Domestic Violence and Divorce

00:06.44
Bruce Anthony
On today's episode I'll be interviewing Heather O'connor she's a family lawyer and divorce lawyer in Massachusetts will be talking about her life skating domestic violence and divorce. But first things first.

01:04.58
Bruce Anthony
So I'm gonna be interviewing Heather O'connor and I'm going to apologize for those people that are watching the video. Um, there's gonna be a little bit of what's called Lip Flap the reception wasn't that great, but the audio there won't be a problem with the audio. Um and the video catches up. It goes back and forth. But um. The interview is very good. Heather has a very interesting life. Um I know that you guys know that I'm not shy talking about my divorce 50% of the marriages end up in divorce I'm cool from it I don't really have any lingering effects from it I know a lot of people that are. Either divorce or are going through a divorce. Ah so this is really interesting to interview Heather I just talk about her life because once again she has a very fascinating life and then hear a little bit more about divorce and divorce proceedings and and the backgrounds of family law so without further ado. Let's get to the interview.

00:09.92
Bruce Anthony
Hello and I'm here with Heather O'connor she's a domestic violence survivor former professional skater mother lawyer and just so I thought that out there grandmother as well. Welcome to the show.

00:25.58
Heather O'Connor
Thank you so much for having me.

00:29.71
Bruce Anthony
Absolutely, It's my pleasure having you here and I'm excited to interview you because you have such an ah fascinating life but I want to start from the beginning skating tell me all about that tell me about um, getting started.

00:36.92
Heather O'Connor
Okay.

00:47.35
Bruce Anthony
Wanting to become an Olympic skater and falling a little short of becoming an Olympic skater give me the whole backstory on that.

00:52.56
Heather O'Connor
Sure. So Basically it started my parents had no money you know we grew up in a house full when I was little we didn't even have a car we had to walk everywhere and take the bus and my my parents were looking for a free activity to be able to take me and my brother too. And there was an advertisement for a free skating show and they were like oh we'll take the kids to that. Well we went to this free show and I fell in love and it ended up with my mom having to work 3 Jobs. My dad working 2 Jobs. You know to help pay for it. So it was.

01:21.88
Bruce Anthony
Who.

01:28.37
Heather O'Connor
Something I had no business being in but I had a passion for it. I loved it. I was really really good at it like I took to it right away and you know my my skill increased quickly. Um. Ended up I moved away from home when I was about 12 to continue training I actually trained with Nancy Carrigan and Paul Wiley and so um, yeah, so that's that's what I did up until my senior year of high school where I decided that you know I wanted to do normal.

01:48.47
Bruce Anthony
You knew.

01:58.71
Heather O'Connor
Kid stuff I had had a couple really bad ankle injuries at that point and I wanted to go to prom I wanted to do gym at school and so we kind of transitioned. It was a big deal in my household because you know my parents had put a lot of into something that now I was just throwing away. So.

02:06.68
Bruce Anthony
Um.

02:11.86
Bruce Anthony
For her.

02:17.80
Heather O'Connor
It was hard but um, you know that's that's where I went and I turned from there after I graduated I started teaching code of teachings figure skating and then I did get back into competing again. Um, after I actually was married and had my first child then that.

02:25.80
Bruce Anthony
Okay.

02:36.63
Heather O'Connor
Part of my career ended because I found out I was so pregnant with my second child so that's pretty much Ah, the the skating story.

02:39.25
Bruce Anthony
Love ok. Okay, so we'll definitely get to the marriage because I know that's the next transition there and in your life you go from skating to to your marriage but Nancy Kerrigan I mean this was obviously after the whole incident.

02:48.15
Heather O'Connor
Okay.

02:59.41
Heather O'Connor
This now this was during so I was training with her when all that happened and you know I never met Tanya Harding or anything like that. But I remember the news cameras being all over the rink we were we trained at they were trying to climb in the roof like we.

03:04.11
Bruce Anthony
Oh.

03:18.10
Heather O'Connor
It was It was ah an incredibly chaotic period of time. But yeah, no, we trained what all during that.

03:23.65
Bruce Anthony
And how did you deal with all of that going around you.

03:28.94
Heather O'Connor
The same way you deal with anything you know when you're a competitive athlete or you're really focused on something you just put on your blinders like a horse and you don't see anything else and you just do what you got to do.

03:44.19
Bruce Anthony
Okay, all right? So I'm interested in the ending of your skating career and in you deciding that you want to have life because I had a similar experience I was ah some friends of mine will say I was a decent basketball player other people that have known me for years will say I. Really good and um in college I had an opportunity to play and I knew a couple of guys on the basketball team and I said I don't want that Life. So I Knew at that point I didn't love it that I liked it was that something similar that that you had where you were like.

04:19.23
Bruce Anthony
Yeah I Really like this I don't know if I love it because I want to live a life I Want to have fun.

04:23.57
Heather O'Connor
Yeah I think when I was younger it was something you know I wanted to eat breathe sleep. Everything was figure skating but then you know as I had the the injuries especially the last major ankle injury I had that took me out of.

04:32.58
Bruce Anthony
I.

04:43.13
Heather O'Connor
You know a competition that I was I was supposed to win I was supposed. You know that's what I was tagged. That's what was expected had a really horrible ankle injury right before it and after that it was like you know the the chances of me making it now at this point are so slim that I I want to just be a kid like I just want to.

04:57.76
Bruce Anthony
And.

05:03.11
Heather O'Connor
Enjoy high school you know for the last half year that I can.

05:05.20
Bruce Anthony
I Can I can definitely understand that So before we get to your marriage and and then we'll dig deeper into your your career in Law. Do you think that becoming a professional skater and. Teaching prepared you for law.

05:28.40
Heather O'Connor
Um I think I don't know if if the teaching aspect of it maybe in in relation to having to explain things to younger kids and be able to take more difficult Concepts and you know simplify them. Maybe that area. But I Definitely think the you know there there were mornings I was up at four a M I was you know we were Tutor. We had tutoring or we were in school for only a partial day. So Everything was so regimented and you know focused that I think that 100% helped me.

05:59.67
Bruce Anthony
To him.

06:04.89
Heather O'Connor
Through law school definitely and then I think also with the demand of being a lawyer and everything that's expected of you I think that definitely helped put me in a better position.

06:14.19
Bruce Anthony
Okay, okay, so we're transitioning now from your figure skating career to your marriage and you'd said that that effectively ended the teaching aspect of figure skating because you weren't pregnant one time.

06:23.50
Heather O'Connor
So okay.

06:30.73
Heather O'Connor
Um, not you? Yeah so as I actually have three kids so I ended up getting pregnant 3 times but um.

06:33.30
Bruce Anthony
But twice.

06:41.35
Heather O'Connor
It it wasn't necessarily that the marriage and in my career I had actually moved out to ah the UP area of Michigan and Wisconsin and I had moved out there to train. Um, the guy who I was dating at the time came with me because he was going to play hockey while we were out there.

06:50.79
Bruce Anthony
A.

06:57.46
Bruce Anthony
Okay.

06:59.71
Heather O'Connor
And during this period of time you know oh great I'm pregnant. What are we going to do now. Oh we're going to get married because that's what's expected of this and so that kind of led to the marriage but I was still teaching you know throughout that whole period.

07:07.60
Bruce Anthony
Yeah, yeah.

07:17.52
Bruce Anthony
Okay, um, can you tell me a little bit about your ex-husband because obviously you got married and got a divorce but your ex-husband.

07:22.78
Heather O'Connor
But.

07:27.34
Bruce Anthony
History of you guys and that whole transition of moving out there getting pregnant deciding to get married and then what the actual marriage was like.

07:35.24
Heather O'Connor
Yeah I I try to be very careful when I speak of this because of the fact that he is still my children's father and but you know I Never there's there's a lot that they know there's There's probably quite a bit that they don't and they don't need to.

07:42.52
Bruce Anthony
Understand.

07:50.61
Bruce Anthony
For example.

07:52.42
Heather O'Connor
And I know they're very active on my social medias and you know everything like that. So I want to be very careful and there's probably going to be things that I definitely leave out for their protection. Um, but I think to summarize you know there were quite a few red flags that I should have seen that I was blinded to.

08:00.13
Bruce Anthony
A.

08:09.93
Heather O'Connor
Partly because I was terrified of letting my family down because of the fact I was pregnant you know without first being married so that was a whole thing because I grew up very very religious where that's not what you do you know and it was extremely. You know.

08:14.23
Bruce Anthony
Um, yeah here.

08:23.40
Bruce Anthony
Yeah.

08:29.29
Heather O'Connor
You You weren't a good person if you were getting pregnant before you got married so there was that whole thing. So I think I ignored a lot of things that now I look back and I say what were you thinking?? But at that point in time I think because of my objective of protecting. You know myself my family and my child that was going to be coming I ignored a lot and then as the marriage continued because when I committed to marriage. Regardless you know I was very young I I was I was 20 when I got married 21 when I had my daughter and.

09:02.64
Bruce Anthony
The.

09:06.55
Heather O'Connor
I was very committed to marriage. You know I had grown up with the the ideology that when you get married that's for life you put everything into that marriage you commit yourself to that marriage regardless of anything that happens you stay married and you work it out.

09:24.82
Bruce Anthony
Um, here.

09:25.90
Heather O'Connor
And so that was that was how I went into the marriage and again along the lines. There were quite a few things. You know the first time there was a domestic incident that that was blatant that couldn't just be oh you know maybe got carried away blah blah blah was the night before my daughter's second birthday.

09:41.74
Bruce Anthony
Um, me here.

09:44.79
Heather O'Connor
And it was the point I remember I took both my kids because I had 2 at that point I took both my kids I got into the car and I was going to leave. You know that that that was a line that got crossed for me. And my elderly neighbor actually came out. She saw me in the car crying and she came out and she said what are you doing these are your kids This is your Family. You can't leave your family and that was everything I had been told my entire life.

10:08.74
Bruce Anthony
4 Yeah.

10:15.52
Heather O'Connor
So I went back in the house put on a lot of makeup and pretended nothing happened and um, you know things things like that continued to happen. Not not so frequently that you know it was an everyday occurrence but frequently enough where it became a pattern and so I learned. A lot after the fact of the things that I had been through and the cycle of domestic violence. Um, but while you're going through it. You're not thinking about that. You're just thinking about how do I get through you know everything that's going on. How do I not make the person upset so we don't have to deal with it and it it. Actually almost becomes where you feel like it's your fault if you didn't do the things right? that prevented the other person from getting upset. So um, you know that there were definitely good parts of our marriage because if there if it was all bad I think nobody would stay.

10:55.93
Bruce Anthony
There here.

11:07.50
Bruce Anthony
Um, it's ripe.

11:09.65
Heather O'Connor
But there were good things. There were bad things and eventually um, it ended with him getting arrested. You know after he attempted to Strangle me. So.

11:20.92
Bruce Anthony
I Think that'll do it. Ah um, okay, Wow. So I don't want to ask too many probing questions because like like you said you don't want to. There are certain things that you don't want to talk about So we'll just frame it as. This was more than a toxic marriage. This was a domestic violence marriage and ah so my question would be how did your personal experience being in this marriage shape. The way you approach family law.

11:50.26
Heather O'Connor
Sure so at that point I had never gone to college. So I only had a high school Diploma I had turned to coaching which you know I had all the experience I needed for that I didn't have to go back to school for that. So it was actually you know during during the period of time that my husband was arrested.

12:02.43
Bruce Anthony
Yeah here.

12:10.30
Heather O'Connor
My my oldest son. Um, he's my middle child but he's my oldest son he was running around the yard just skipping saying my daddy got arrested my daddy got arrested like and the police came to me and said ma'am we want to speak with your son because this isn't typically how children are acting. When their parents getting arrested in front of them so they took my son aside and they spoke with him and then they came back to me and they said ma'am we want to let you know we're going to be filing a 51 a which is what we refer to here as the initial complaint to social services and they said because of the fact that when we asked your son.

12:29.35
Bruce Anthony
Um, yeah here.

12:48.82
Heather O'Connor
If he knew why his father was getting arrested his response was yes, he's he hurt my mummy like he hurts us and that for me when I heard that it took probably about a month for me to really work up the courage because my husband has also told me.

12:56.56
Bruce Anthony
Um, and.

13:08.17
Heather O'Connor
If I ever left him that he would take everything from me. He would take my children he would take you know all the money that I would be lucky enough to even be sleeping on a park bench at night and I believed him you know I believed what he said.

13:19.96
Bruce Anthony
Um, thank you.

13:24.70
Heather O'Connor
And so I was terrified but it was finding out that my children were being affected was what I don't want to say gave me the courage. But I knew there was no return and that was when I filed for divorce so through that process I I wasn't an attorney.

13:37.34
Bruce Anthony
Um, where.

13:44.00
Heather O'Connor
You know I I knew nothing about it I had never been involved in the law. Um, and through that what I saw was one a lot of things that I felt were injust within the system and I didn't understand.

13:57.47
Bruce Anthony
A.

13:59.22
Heather O'Connor
I had had a number of conversations with other people as you sit in court and I remember one conversation I had with a woman specifically where we were talking back and forth and we both had you know similar stories of feeling as though our attorneys. You know they seem to know the legal mumbo jumbo they seem to know what they were talking about, but they just didn't get it and it was that it that word it that I went home that night and I remember laying up looking at the ceiling thinking you know what? what is it that I feel that the lawyer's not getting. And it finally hit me where it's it's the emotional side of what you're going through. It's the ups and the downs and you know at 1 point you're feeling ecstatic because you're looking at having a completely different life that you can make into something wonderful and then in the very next moment.

14:36.60
Bruce Anthony
Um, yeah.

14:42.40
Bruce Anthony
Ah, ah.

14:55.69
Heather O'Connor
You're crying on the floor because your life as you knew it is over and you don't know what you're going to do. It's a feeling of extreme fear of the unknown. It's a feeling of joy of letting go of a past that wasn't happy. You know there's there's a hundred and one different things that you go through that the lawyer just.

15:00.35
Bruce Anthony
Um, you know.

15:15.49
Heather O'Connor
Didn't understand and treated it just as if it was any other case and it's not nobody going through a divorce or a family law. You can have very similar circumstances but those cases are very different because there's very different people and it was that and I remember sitting there saying I think.

15:17.70
Bruce Anthony
Um, your her.

15:26.80
Bruce Anthony
Right? um.

15:35.30
Heather O'Connor
I can do this better than what I'm seeing out there and my lawyer at one point said Heather you know you've got 3 kids so all my kids were under the age of 6 when I went through my divorce and um so he said you've got some really young kids here. What? what are you going to do to support them.

15:37.62
Bruce Anthony
Here.

15:45.28
Bruce Anthony
Okay.

15:54.30
Heather O'Connor
And I remember looking at him I said well I'm going to go back to school and then I'm going to go to law school and then I'm going to be an attorney and I'm going to open my own family law firm and I'm going to do this. He literally laughed at me and like like ah thought I was joking 100% thought I was joking.

16:05.67
Bruce Anthony
Here.

16:13.46
Heather O'Connor
And then I could see the look. You know the realization in his face drip down as he realized like oh no, she is not joking and he goes Heather Do you have any idea what you would be getting into and I was like Nope but I'll figure it out.

16:19.97
Bruce Anthony
Right.

16:31.81
Heather O'Connor
And so that's what I did I started back to community college then I went to undergrad then I went to law school then I clerked for 2 years then I joined a firm and got a lot of experience and then I opened my own firm in 2016 so so when I when I so.

16:44.46
Bruce Anthony
Um, now how old were you when you started this process.

16:51.50
Heather O'Connor
First started back to school. It was in 2004 so I'd have to do some math. so so I think I was around twenty seven or twenty Eight maybe 26

16:57.41
Bruce Anthony
Are okay Wow Okay, okay.

17:10.74
Heather O'Connor
But somewhere somewhere somewhere in there I think 26 because I think I was 20 when I graduated community college but don't quote me on that. Um.

17:16.37
Bruce Anthony
That would that would make sense. Yeah, it would make sense because it's typically a 2 year situation. Okay, so before we get to your law career I have to ask you what advice would you give individuals who are considered leaving. Toxic relationships or domestic abuse relationships I say toxic but is domestic abuse which is still toxic but but um, but but what would you? what advice would you give to those people that are trying to leave those relationships but are afraid of the financial and emotional consequences of leaving that relationship.

17:38.13
Heather O'Connor
Um, yeah.

17:51.17
Heather O'Connor
I did it and you know I I remember thinking look I don't really besides figure skating which at that point in time. The economy had crashed so I went from coaching quite a bit.

17:52.60
Bruce Anthony
Because you did it.

18:06.20
Heather O'Connor
The first thing people do when the money's tight is get rid of extracurricular activities. You know so I went from coaching quite a bit to very very limited and not enough to really support a family on and so for me, it was you know how? how do I make money in the interim or.

18:09.14
Bruce Anthony
Um, right.

18:23.86
Heather O'Connor
If I'm not going to back to school because this is also a period of time where I thought just if you were a lawyer you would be rich which is not necessarily true, but that's what I thought it's yes, which.

18:28.78
Bruce Anthony
Her but I will say I will say when you become a lawyer you have debt right? yeah.

18:42.65
Heather O'Connor
Which you know I didn't think that part through but I I kind of thought you know if I can make it as a lawyer I'll be rich and I'd rather work my my ass off basically for seven years eight years ten years and eventually no. That I can be there versus continuing to struggle to make ends meet forever. You know because nobody's going to give me money. Nobody's going to throw money at me. You know we didn't have a lot of money during our marriage and my ex sucked at paying child support. So I couldn't even rely on that and um.

19:08.77
Bruce Anthony
Um, here.

19:17.70
Bruce Anthony
Are.

19:22.14
Heather O'Connor
So for me, my mindset was I could either struggle forever or I can struggle and take control of my future and that's what I did and I think you know for people going through it if you can come to that resolve of taking your future and not waiting for somebody to give something to you or or you know. Waiting for the right Opportune time. There's never going to be the right opportune time and the longer you stay in a situation like that the the more you start to suffocate and you drowned there and it becomes even harder to get out.

19:44.89
Bruce Anthony
Are.

19:56.35
Bruce Anthony
Um, what did you do for a living as you're putting yourself through school because I'm gonna so I don't need to know your financials but I'm gonna assume that you took out school loans right? and but you also have three kids and you mentioned that your ex was. Piss Poor at paying child support. So What were some of the things that you did because putting yourself through school even with loans and and they just don't cover everything that you need nevermind effect that you got a family and kids to raise what did you do to make ends meet.

20:26.86
Heather O'Connor
Yeah I mean I bartened it I waitressed but I also knew that if I could get really good grades I could get scholarships and so I made it a point where I an a.

20:36.47
Bruce Anthony
There you go? yeah.

20:43.58
Heather O'Connor
I wasn't going to settle for an a I needed an a plus I needed to be top of my class because one I knew I knew I had my age against me and I knew the fact that I had 3 kids working against me, you know where you have to apply to get into law school I don't know what they're going to look at and they're going to say whoa. She's older and she's got children like. She's a question Mark. So I knew I needed to set myself up well and so for community college. Thankfully you know because of the fact I was divorced and I had three kids I did qualify for a number of so of um, grants that I didn't have to repay.

21:19.00
Bruce Anthony
Um, okay.

21:20.54
Heather O'Connor
And then what I ended up also doing is because you can take out school loans that if you don't need it to pay for school. You can utilize for your living expenses and so um, my debt I ended up you know Community College was mostly paid for through through grants.

21:29.87
Bruce Anthony
Are.

21:39.81
Heather O'Connor
Um, undergrad I had a full scholarship so I didn't pay anything for that. But I did take out all the money to live off of and then when I got to law school I got a very significant scholarship in law school but it was the same thing I took out quite a bit of money to live and subsidize.

21:43.80
Bruce Anthony
Um, okay.

21:46.96
Bruce Anthony
Yeah.

21:58.21
Heather O'Connor
The you know what I was earning as a bartender.

21:59.54
Bruce Anthony
Okay, you you brought up something and I don't know even know why I didn't think of this ahead of time. Obviously you're an older person in the classroom with younger people and I remember being in college and there would be an older person I remember distinctly there was this woman. She wasn't much older than I was but she had a kid and and a whole nod. What was the reaction from the other students. Um, knowing your story Obviously they didn't know all the details of the story but they knew that you were a mother with 3 kids and that you were older than them. Did they. Treat you any type of way. Um, because of that difference.

22:39.91
Heather O'Connor
Um, I think the one thing I did and I don't want to sound conceded with this coming off but I've always looked much younger than I am and.

22:48.13
Bruce Anthony
You do.

22:50.79
Heather O'Connor
Even when I would like when I was 28 I still looked like I was 21 you know I think I got carded up until maybe five years ago so I looked very young. So I think nobody would have known until they started talking to me or like we were. Having a friendship or my life story just came out if you were just looking. You might think hey she's a little bit older than the people. But it wasn't that significant immediate um assumption that I was older in most of the situations I think I think for a lot of people that did know. There was a lot of mutual respect you know I I think that I became friends with a lot of people that were going through school. Um I'm still followed by a lot of people that I went to undergrad with you threw out my social media. We've been friends in real life. They send clients to me. Um, you know there there was. Where they saw a drive you know I wasn't just sitting back and to get through school like I was that person who everyone hated because the teacher would be like any other questions and I'd be like I have one like I need to know everything because I need my grades you know and um.

23:55.48
Bruce Anthony
Right right? there.

24:02.30
Heather O'Connor
So I I don't think that I had that level of difficulty I do remember in law school my first year because first year law school is like nothing you can prepare for. It is exhausting and i.

24:12.58
Bruce Anthony
Here.

24:18.00
Heather O'Connor
I knew going into it that with my 3 kids you never know when somebody's going to get sick. You never know when the school's going to call to come pick your kid up because they're having a bad day at school. You know you never know what's going to happen so I couldn't act like the other students and just stay on top of my work I had to be ahead of my work.

24:27.93
Bruce Anthony
That hurt.

24:36.82
Heather O'Connor
So I remember one day I think I hadn't slept all night because me one of my kids were sick or something I forget exactly the reason but I hadn't slept and I'm in class and this girl behind me is complaining about you know how she has this little dog that keeps her from doing her work because it barks at her and she's got to take it to the.

24:42.97
Bruce Anthony
A.

24:55.80
Heather O'Connor
Dog the dog park and you know she couldn't get her work done and I turned around I was like if I hear 1 more effing thing about your god damn dog I think.

25:09.43
Bruce Anthony
Um, because you're sitting there dealing with real problems and and she's in here. Yeah right.

25:13.40
Heather O'Connor
Meanwhile like I'm cleaning puke up all night and I still have to be to class. You know so I lost it a little bit. We weren't friends the rest of that year we did make up later. But.

25:24.75
Bruce Anthony
You should have invited her over to clean up some of that puke. Ah.

25:33.15
Bruce Anthony
Okay, Heather so I've dug all into your personal life and maybe got a little too personal but but I think it. It's good content and and I'm very appreciative of you being so open. So thank you.

25:45.93
Heather O'Connor
You're welcome I Also think it's very important for people to know that they're not alone when they're going through things like that and so as I said you know I want to protect some of it for my children. But I also do believe that it is so important to share. You know if you've been through something like that.

25:53.81
Bruce Anthony
Exactly.

26:02.70
Heather O'Connor
I Think you almost have a duty to give back and help other people out of it. Um.

26:05.73
Bruce Anthony
Speaking on your duty as an excellent segue all right speaking of your duty as a lawyer What do you believe are the most important qualities of being a successful lawyer and how do you cultivate those qualities not only in yourself. But also in your team because by the way in case I didn't point that out. Heather has a kick ass law firm.

26:28.33
Heather O'Connor
It's so true I'm a little biased you know because I've felt it and I own it. But I do I think we have an absolutely amazing team and it started with a vision that just continues to grow you know So I think to answer your multi questions.

26:42.89
Bruce Anthony
I Know I do that there I do that a lot.

26:44.91
Heather O'Connor
Question there um to to start with I Think what makes a successful lawyer and some of that is going to define how somebody defines success in and of itself you know, somebody might think and I know there's a general perception of lawyers that they will do anything they can for a dollar. You know? and um, you know a lot of times that dollar comes with winning so they're willing to hurt people to be able to get that dollar and get that win that is not what I consider Success. You know I consider success being especially in my field of family law I consider it to to make sure that you understand where a person's coming from.

27:06.73
Bruce Anthony
A. Be here.

27:23.60
Heather O'Connor
That you are guiding them and letting them understand the choices that they have so that they have the ability to and the education behind them to make the choices that are going to affect their life then it's also making sure that you're representing them to the.

27:29.88
Bruce Anthony
Um, and.

27:39.88
Heather O'Connor
Best of your ability both in the law both in the way you argue and um, well always looking for a way to negotiate and get them out of the system as quickly as possible well being able to strategize looking forward in case, you are not able to do that. So that you can kill the other side in court and you know get the outcome for your client that you're looking for. But there's there's so many different directions and it's part of why I love this area because it's not black and white There's always 50000 different ways you can go and I think success is doing.

28:00.82
Bruce Anthony
Um.

28:14.00
Bruce Anthony
Um, may have.

28:15.74
Heather O'Connor
You You know the the best job for your client in the shortest amount of time and having that client leave with regardless you know I've had cases like I hate to admit it. But it's true. You know I'd be lying to say otherwise I've had cases that did not come out the way that I was hoping but my client has stood there and said you know I get it.

28:29.33
Bruce Anthony
Here.

28:34.94
Heather O'Connor
And no I don't like the result but you fought for me, you know you heard me, you understood me and you know there's been a friendship that's formed from that and to me that's success. You know success is when somebody goes regardless of their outcome and says if you're going to hire somebody This is where you want to go because they listen.

28:50.51
Bruce Anthony
Are.

28:53.75
Heather O'Connor
And they they they do what they say and for me that's that's what defines success. So I think that's the answer that part.

28:58.27
Bruce Anthony
It? Yeah so it seems like to me in everything that you just said and everything that you said in the first segment about when you were going through. This is that you it seems like correct me if I'm wrong, you literally put yourself in their shoes and it's. Ah, constant reminder of what you went through to make sure I don't want to make them feel like that it is missing.

29:24.97
Heather O'Connor
Right? And and the hard part. You know I I know I'm very good at that. You know I know I can do that in. Um, the hardest part also being you know an a type personality red.

29:32.44
Bruce Anthony
Um, if it.

29:39.10
Heather O'Connor
Color you know is my personality I'm I'm very much a control freak in a lot of ways passing that off as I build a team was something that I had to go through a lot of minds shifting and a lot of um, letting go you know not of the expectation I have of people but of the fact that at the very beginning it was.

29:47.90
Bruce Anthony
Are new here.

29:58.85
Heather O'Connor
I know I can do it right? So I want to do it all you know, but in order to grow in order to you know service The number of people that I want to be able to so that they all get that same level.

29:59.14
Bruce Anthony
Right.

30:09.37
Heather O'Connor
It's been this building process and this growth process of having people come in and making sure that they understand our vision and our goals making sure they understand how to make that connection and you know when I'm hiring I'm always looking for people that have some sort of um life experience.

30:26.63
Bruce Anthony
Then and.

30:28.60
Heather O'Connor
With family Law. You know, not just that they went to school and you know they they haven't had that experience. Um I think pretty much everyone on our team whether it's been them as a child whether it's been them as an adult whether it's been. You know a spouse of theirs that has gone through the system. They they all have something that they can relate to with family law and that's been very very important to me.

30:53.12
Bruce Anthony
Um, that's that's that's dope. That's really dope. Um, Okay so in dealing with family law and divorce Law. What are some common misconceptions that you encounter with your work and how do you help. These clients overcome these misconceptions.

31:12.50
Heather O'Connor
I Think you know the the biggest one is that mom always gets the kids you know I don't think that's necessarily true in most cases anymore. Um I think.

31:21.45
Bruce Anthony
Um, really okay I do.

31:25.48
Heather O'Connor
At least in Massachusetts so I'm only I'm licensed in Massachusetts I practice in Massachusetts I'm also licensed in Rhode Island but whenever I talk about law I focus on Massachusetts because that's where we do the majority of our work and here I think there has been a lot of growth towards fathers. But I also think here.

31:34.30
Bruce Anthony
A.

31:42.79
Heather O'Connor
A lot of fathers have stepped up during their relationship and there is a number of dads who are now the primary caretaker during the relationship which you didn't have before and it's one of the things that I would like to see change in our society as a whole is you know and I understand it because if 1 person has a better job.

31:55.47
Bruce Anthony
Here.

32:01.83
Heather O'Connor
And the the other person doesn't you know doesn't have as many career advancements. It makes financial sense for that person to be the one that runs the kids around that takes time off from work. But if you want equality when the relationship ends put your work in while you're still together.

32:11.17
Bruce Anthony
Exactly yeah.

32:18.92
Bruce Anthony
Here.

32:20.65
Heather O'Connor
You know, make sure that you're also you know as dad taking time off to to take care of the kids if there's a snow day you know and I think that would change a lot throughout other jurisdictions I do think Massachusetts has come a far way.

32:36.47
Bruce Anthony
Um, a.

32:37.25
Heather O'Connor
You know, depending on who you talk to? There's a lot of guys out there that would probably say something different but in my practice. That's what I've seen you know for for the most part if dad wants to a substantial role in their child's life even if it's not a full fifty fifty they get that opportunity.

32:40.86
Bruce Anthony
So.

32:56.46
Bruce Anthony
Okay, that's interesting I'm not gonna throw my friend out of the bus but I know I have a friend that got a divorce um and I guess his ex-wife made more money because he got I guess primary custody. And he got child support and it was literally the first time I'd ever heard anything like that I was like wait a minute. The man can get child support that and like especially if it's not like Oprah like if it's not Oprah right? If. It's not Oprah or who else is somebody really rich. Um.

33:18.70
Heather O'Connor
Um, yeah, and Alimoy now.

33:29.71
Bruce Anthony
Ah, Jeff Bezos ' ex-wife if she gets remarried and and they have kids whatever I would expect something like that. But this was like normal average people and he got child support and I said I don't know how you pull that went off so that's this that's a a misconception is that yeah the woman always.

33:34.43
Heather O'Connor
Um, yeah.

33:38.64
Heather O'Connor
Um, yeah.

33:49.57
Bruce Anthony
Gets everything and there's also a little bit of toxic masculinity that that goes along with that thinking that women always get everything and she's gonna take half and that's that yeah, but but we don't need to go there about toxic masculinity. Okay, okay.

34:00.70
Heather O'Connor
Um, you know I think some of that too. Also unfortunately depends on who you choose as a lawyer you know I know that there's.

34:11.50
Bruce Anthony
Um, dream.

34:13.65
Heather O'Connor
I won't throw anyone under the bus but I can think of 1 lawyer specifically who when he he's dealing with a male client. He scares them into agreeing to give away a lot more than they should. And I've had cases where they come to us later and I look at it and I'm like why? why did you do this but you can't you can't usually undo what's already been done. You know we've been able to do that in some cases but there's others, especially if you're talking about a property distribution.

34:33.57
Bruce Anthony
Right.

34:39.40
Bruce Anthony
A.

34:47.52
Heather O'Connor
Once it's done. It's done. You can't go back and fix it So as much as I'd love to say you know every lawyer out there is great. They're not. There's a lot of lawyers that are good and will guide you in the right way but there's there's some that unfortunately.

35:00.39
Bruce Anthony
Um, ah.

35:03.54
Heather O'Connor
You know, guide people in a very wrong direction.

35:04.66
Bruce Anthony
So That leads me to and a different question. What are if you could What are some things that people who are looking for lawyers family Dispute Divorce. What have you that that what are. Questions that they can ask lawyers to find out is this lawyer going to really give me the best advice and are there even questions like maybe trigger answers to questions that a lawyer would say and and that person that client would say now you know what I don't know about this lawyer. They're not, they're gonna tell me to sign away. Everything. So are there questions that.

35:37.38
Heather O'Connor
Yeah, go.

35:40.85
Bruce Anthony
That a client can ask a lawyer to get that information out beforehand.

35:44.75
Heather O'Connor
Yeah I think you know one one is usually a communication issue and right from the beginning if you're having trouble getting in touch with a law firm like when you're hiring them they they should be on their best you know, ah appearance their best behavior really.

36:00.60
Bruce Anthony
Maybe.

36:02.41
Heather O'Connor
And if they're already not responding to you quickly in there. It's only likely going to be worse. You know another thing that I think is important to ask if you go in and you say I want the kids I want the house I want retirement I want alimony I want I want it all and they say okay, yeah I can get that for you 100%

36:07.17
Bruce Anthony
Right.

36:21.73
Heather O'Connor
They're full of crap and you should run Run Run run you know and even even if sometimes you know you're going through the the case. So let's say I hired somebody and then I start questioning you know that advice.

36:23.59
Bruce Anthony
A.

36:36.70
Heather O'Connor
Feel free to contact another attorney and usually you can set up like an hour consultation just to go through and see if that Attorney might have any feedback on what they might do differently or you know what has been done and you got to be careful there because you know Attorneys can try to undercut the other person.

36:46.78
Bruce Anthony
A.

36:56.11
Heather O'Connor
But if you really believe in your heart that you know you're you're being told information that just isn't sitting well with you double check it with somebody else and also look at their website. You know what is their? what is their focus on their website are they giving away information because you know Attorneys should want to educate people who aren't even hiring them.

37:14.19
Bruce Anthony
A.

37:15.92
Heather O'Connor
So if if their website isn't set up in a way where they are giving the information for people who if they need to do things there themselves they're putting themselves in a good direction that Attorney is not going to educate you correctly. So I think those are a few I know our intakes coordinator. She's actually done.

37:29.15
Bruce Anthony
Um, a.

37:35.25
Heather O'Connor
Um, a lot of talks about these these exact things because it is really important for somebody to to know what they're getting into and nobody knows until they're already there and that's part of the problem.

37:44.17
Bruce Anthony
Right? Okay, so that's good advice. Y'all listen out there. Hopefully hopefully nobody is getting a divorce I don't I don't want to have anymore. My friends called me telling me they getting a divorce. But if you do those are questions to ask.

37:49.78
Heather O'Connor
If if.

38:02.40
Bruce Anthony
So I know in your field you have to deal with emotionally charged situations and you came from a situation that you might be reminded of. Traumatic experiences dealing with your work. How do you balance that? How do you balance emotionally charged situations that remind you of the past and still keep a solid balance in your life.

38:36.71
Heather O'Connor
That's a great question and I think I have done so much work on myself. You know that was one of the things that when I was coming out of the divorce again. It was either I can be a victim of my circumstances or I can take the bull by the reins and and you know kick it. And that's what I decided to do and I I move forward and I let go a lot of the past. So I don't think I can't think of anything you know within let's even say the past five years I can't think of anything where it was a triggering event for me.

38:54.11
Bruce Anthony
Um, a.

39:13.11
Heather O'Connor
You know I think a lot of times I hear things and I can understand what somebody's going through but it's not necessarily triggering and I think that's only because I've done so much Work. You know I know that there there are some things that you know and we we have it set up in our firm. We do have a a. We call her a high conflict relationship coach who has been able to even work. She's not a therapist but she's been able to work even with some of our team when they do hit a situation that is kind of triggering to them and we don't keep them. You know on a case where where they might be struggling because that's not what's best for the client. Um.

39:43.86
Bruce Anthony
Um, and.

39:49.13
Bruce Anthony
Um, right.

39:51.13
Heather O'Connor
But you know I I think for me when I hear things that that I've been through before or that I do understand it brings a sense of awareness. Not only for what they're going through but also part of my job part of our job here. Is not just to get them a legal result. It's to start putting them on a path in their life that puts them in a position that when they're done with us you know through this that legal paper regardless of what it says means Crap. You know they're going to take control of their life and they're going to change it.

40:11.60
Bruce Anthony
Um, you know.

40:23.32
Bruce Anthony
Right.

40:26.72
Heather O'Connor
And that's you know, getting them to think about not being a victim you know, rising above what can we do to set up boundaries So you're not ending up in the same situation. Those are all things that I take as a responsibility within you know our firm as a lawyer. It's not just law.

40:35.64
Bruce Anthony
Um, and.

40:46.10
Heather O'Connor
There's so much else that goes into the divorce process and that's what we're trying to create within our firm is a life change.

40:53.54
Bruce Anthony
I Love that Lifestyle change I Love that. Ah I think that's so very very important just when you're helping people change their life. You know I'm a fitness person now I'm not gonna get in specific. Because there are some people that follow me, they don't need to know exactly what I do and and building people up helping them lose weight mentally emotionally and improving their wellbeing and I always tell people hey this is a lifestyle change I'm I'm teaching you something that you can carry on when I'm gone and that's.

41:11.13
Heather O'Connor
With.

41:29.96
Heather O'Connor
Ah, here.

41:30.34
Bruce Anthony
Beautiful to hear that it's not a end result right for you and your law firm. It is. We Want to prepare you for the rest of your life I Love that I Really do love that So in speaking in that. And and we don't have to give any names right? But in speaking of that do you have? ah you know a success story of somebody who left a pretty traumatic relationship and is thriving after it through the help of you and your law firm.

42:03.12
Heather O'Connor
I Think um, one story comes to mind and it's actually it's not what I would think of as the story to give away you know for that because but let me let me just tell it and then you can decide.

42:17.10
Bruce Anthony
Um, okay, okay.

42:19.62
Heather O'Connor
And it's one of it's one of my favorite cases because it was the first time I saw what I believed in work and so this man hired me. Um he was a dad and he was up on attempted murder charges because he had caught his wife. You know, cheating on him and he had gone after the guy that she was with so so he's up. You know he's very angry during the period of time you know, of course she got a restraining order on him. He was kicked out of the house during this period of time. There was a lot of damage done for.

42:41.84
Bruce Anthony
Huh. Okay.

42:55.50
Bruce Anthony
You there.

42:55.48
Heather O'Connor
Kids you know in their relationship with their dad and how they saw him and when he came to me he was so angry you know he was angry at the guy he was angry at his wife. He was angry at the World. He was angry at everyone and I remember looking at him ago not saying names I said. The only way I'm going to work with you is if you take some responsibility for what you did here and you work on changing that and he had to because of the criminal charges he had to go through. You know we have Batterers programs around here so he had to go through that and he promised me during that Meeting. He said.

43:22.50
Bruce Anthony
Um, yeah.

43:34.57
Heather O'Connor
I Will do everything that I can and he got involved with a personal therapist. Um, it was funny because at one point he was calling me so frequently just not even to talk about law but just to talk about like how he was struggling and how to come out of that and I was like your therapist is way cheaper than me. And he was like yeah but I feel like I actually get more from you and I was like all right as long as you know you're paying for but there was such a progression in his how he saw things how he perceived things how he could react where.

44:00.83
Bruce Anthony
Ah.

44:10.44
Heather O'Connor
At the very beginning in the case where he did not see his kids. You know she would have just pushed his button a little wrong and he would have blown up by the end of the case we walked away with so legal and physical custody of the children she was kicked out of the house. He got the house. He kept all his ah he kept.

44:18.79
Bruce Anthony
Um, here.

44:25.26
Bruce Anthony
Um, wow.

44:29.46
Heather O'Connor
All his retirement she had to pay me Attorney fees. It was the complete change. You know by the time we actually went to trial and he walked away with everything his kids. Um.

44:32.60
Bruce Anthony
Wow.

44:43.66
Heather O'Connor
Again I don't want to get into details but they're all doing really really? well. They don't really have a relationship with their mom Unfortunately any longer but you know I've I've followed that family and that yeah I could sit here and be like yeah I got you know I got them the kids I got him the house.

44:48.22
Bruce Anthony
And.

44:55.23
Bruce Anthony
Ah, a.

45:01.48
Heather O'Connor
But if he did not do the work. He never would have been in the situation to be able to have the doors open for him to take that and that's where I feel that what you do for yourself and how you change yourself goes so closely hand in hand with your legal.

45:18.20
Bruce Anthony
Um, yeah.

45:21.24
Heather O'Connor
You know issue where I could be the best I mean I think I'm a pretty good lawyer but I could be the best lawyer in the world if he was still that man that first came to me. There's no way in how we would have walked away with that result that was because of him and his willingness to change and do the work that needed to be done.

45:25.36
Bruce Anthony
Sounds like it.

45:40.67
Heather O'Connor
And that's why I feel so strongly about illegal results as a piece paper that that's not only going to get you what you think you want. It's really the entire process that can get you what you want.

45:52.65
Bruce Anthony
Wow, That's that that is really that is a really good story because the way it started off I was like is this is this the basis of a music video like I think I've seen this music video before the way that started off Wow but that's that's really good that he turned himself around and.

45:59.62
Heather O'Connor
And.

46:08.60
Heather O'Connor
Um.

46:11.52
Bruce Anthony
And yeah Wow I wasn't expecting that. Ah.

46:13.62
Heather O'Connor
No like I said and it's not what you'd think of you know of your typical domestic violence Survivor. You know that that rises above but that I think is one of the most dramatic stories where I've seen such a shift and the result that we walked away with because of that shift. Like I don't know if I'll ever have another case that beats that. But ah, you know we'll see because I'm all I'm in the business of change in life here.

46:38.36
Bruce Anthony
I like that but I got a question so in that scenario wasn't he the domestic abuser.

46:45.87
Heather O'Connor
So there it wasn't that there was any abuse in regards to his children or his wife. He was definitely wrong within that scenario a lot of allegations were made after the fact that we were able to successfully refute, but that's.

46:55.52
Bruce Anthony
A.

47:04.46
Heather O'Connor
That's part of you know the issue where Mom took a corner where she just couldn't really come back from it. Um, so in that particular situation. Unfortunately, he let the situation get the best of him but I also understand if you keep catch your spouse cheating on you.

47:11.62
Bruce Anthony
Um, and.

47:20.97
Bruce Anthony
Look yeah.

47:23.38
Heather O'Connor
You might be a little angry. Do I do I think you should go attack them. No but I get it you attacked him.

47:28.20
Bruce Anthony
Well, he didn't attack her. He attacked him. He attacked him so you know I I want to be so messy right now I want to be so messy. All I just got 1 more question about that scenario did did did the 2 guys know each other.

47:42.67
Heather O'Connor
Okay, now no.

47:47.52
Bruce Anthony
Is that the reason why he attacked them. Okay, all right all right? Okay, that would spark a little bit more anger out of me but let me let me move on past. Its let me not keep getting messy. Um, what do you hope to achieve and and your work aside from helping people improve their lives.

47:56.52
Heather O'Connor
Um.

48:07.13
Bruce Anthony
After the fact, um, and do you think there needs to be any changes in the legal system. Ah how we deal with family domestic abuse divorce all of that.

48:21.30
Heather O'Connor
I Mean that is a very loaded question because yes I think the entire system needs to be changed like the the process sucks and there's definitely times where you know as a lawyer I'm part of the system and there's sometimes where it works beautifully and I feel like Justice has been accomplished.

48:24.59
Bruce Anthony
And less.

48:40.69
Heather O'Connor
And there's other times I walk away and I go what? what am I doing I'm just part of the problem. You know it's just this reoccurring unjustice in this you know so-called Justice system where there there's so many things wrong you know and I think that becomes incredibly frustrating.

48:43.93
Bruce Anthony
Here.

48:51.17
Bruce Anthony
Me here.

48:59.95
Heather O'Connor
As as an attorney because we can't necessarily change that do I have plans to eventually you know, get in there and have my voice heard of what needs to be changed. Hell yeah you know, but.

49:10.40
Bruce Anthony
Yeah, ah for for all for all the people that are just listening to the audio and not watching the video the way Heather said that do I have plans of getting it.

49:14.36
Heather O'Connor
But it's kind of that's part of the big vision of where my firm is going.

49:28.70
Bruce Anthony
It was a lot of spice it was. There was a lot going on there and I love every piece of it I love absolutely all of that and I look let me tell you something if I was in Massachusetts you decide run for office. You had my vote because I I believe in in.

49:43.43
Heather O'Connor
Um, ah thank you.

49:46.51
Bruce Anthony
The law in which you're practicing I believe that that's the way it should be because you are right at the top it in if you there's this misconception. There's a stereotype and sometimes stereotypes fit but there's a stereotype that all lawyers are shysters like all politicians are scheiststers and that's.

50:01.65
Heather O'Connor
Live.

50:05.71
Bruce Anthony
Absolutely not the case. So it's fantastic to have a lawyer on here to disprove those poor stereotypes or negative stereotypes.

50:14.88
Heather O'Connor
Well I appreciate that because we've we've gotten some 1 star Google reviews from people we we do have a pretty strict process of who we allow to retain us and you know we've gotten some 1 ne-stars from either people that we've had to get rid of because we've figured throughout the process that.

50:26.55
Bruce Anthony
Um.

50:32.71
Heather O'Connor
They're They're really the problem or we haven't allowed them to hire us and they're very angry at that. So so you know it's kind of the price you pay for having standards.

50:38.59
Bruce Anthony
Ah, haters they're haters. So Heather is there any final advice that you want to give people out there that are going through a tough marriage.

50:55.12
Bruce Anthony
Possibly thinking about getting divorce um or just they don't know if they can get out of their marriage for financial or emotional reasons. Do you have any parting words of wisdom.

51:08.40
Heather O'Connor
Um.

51:11.62
Bruce Anthony
To to guide them to the right decision for them.

51:15.26
Heather O'Connor
Um, I think that I I still believe in marriage you know I did end up 3 years and almost four years ago now I did get remarried after swearing it off for over 15 years

51:26.10
Bruce Anthony
Um, okay.

51:28.80
Heather O'Connor
I I do believe in marriage and I think that's something not to throw away easily and there's a lot of people that will call us and they'll say you know how do I know when it's time to file a divorce and that's not a lawyer a question any lawyer should if a lawyer says yes you should file for a divorce. They're probably not the best lawyer. That's ah, that's a personal question. However, there's certain things that are very very difficult to come back From. Can you can you come back from a domestic you know Violence relationship. Yes, Can you come back from a cheating relationship? Yes, but only. If the other person is completely willing to do the work for them and that is not something you can make them do so if they're not willing to do the work to change how they are and how they treat you then it's not going to work and to figure that out.

52:06.63
Bruce Anthony
And.

52:21.34
Heather O'Connor
I am a huge advocate of Therapy I am a huge advocate of getting in and talking about you know because a lot of times especially in domestic violence situations. You've been beat down. You know I remember speaking with my therapist and yeah I I was like I Just don't even know who I am you know I don't know.

52:31.61
Bruce Anthony
A.

52:41.20
Heather O'Connor
Anything about me I Just I've I've just done everything I could to make everyone else happy and peaceful and she even said Well let's start with some basics. What's your favorite kind of pizza and I was like I don't know it's whatever everybody wants to eat like I'll just order that and even.

52:51.35
Bruce Anthony
Are you.

52:59.10
Heather O'Connor
Coming to the realization that I didn't even know what type of food I preferred was almost this eyeopener for me where I said I have and I'm a pretty you know self-asserted person and I've been that way my whole life. But I lost that you know I lost that completely. So even before you start the process.

53:02.39
Bruce Anthony
Hey.

53:12.72
Bruce Anthony
Right.

53:19.10
Heather O'Connor
Find somebody and not the therapist in you know that you see on Tv where you lie on the couch and you just talk about your problems. The people who really dive down deep and get you to talk about you know what? it is that you believe in why you believe it what you can do to change it. How are you going to build yourself back up.

53:34.57
Bruce Anthony
Here ahead.

53:36.45
Heather O'Connor
It It can be very uncomfortable at times and if you have a therapist. You're never uncomfortable with you or not with the right therapist. So I think sometimes doing that ahead of time and building yourself up because Divorce is not an easy process and especially if you're coming against somebody who you know for all.

53:40.59
Bruce Anthony
Hey.

53:55.20
Heather O'Connor
For for sake of the the situation. You know they've had the upper hand they know what to say to make you do certain things. They know how to terrify you they know exactly what to do? How to say it wouldn't say it. That's that's you know this is like David and goliath you're going up against a giant when you're going through that divorce process.

54:04.88
Bruce Anthony
A.

54:14.50
Heather O'Connor
So building yourself up so that you're ready to go through it and you don't crumble is so important because I've I've seen unfortunately I've seen that happen as well. You know where 1 person just gives in because they can't keep fighting. Um, so I think for anyone who's. Who's in that situation find a really really awesome therapist somebody who you like but knows how to make you uncomfortable because that's where growth comes from.

54:42.49
Bruce Anthony
Who wow you hit that ladies and Jim that was powerful that was real that was powerful ladies and gentlemen that is Heather O'connor not only a former professional skater. Not only a mother not only a kickass lawyer. But also once again. Ah, grandmother I want to thank you for this interview. This was really insightful I think I definitely learned a lot I know my listeners will learn a lot as well and some people have some things to I'm not saying anything directly to anybody.

55:02.99
Heather O'Connor
That's true.

55:20.40
Bruce Anthony
Just saying some people have some things to think about. But thank you, Thank you so much for this interview.

55:23.73
Heather O'Connor
No, it was a pleasure you know? Thank you so much for having me on and let me share a little bit of my story. All right? Thank you.

55:28.83
Bruce Anthony
Absolutely it was my honor.