Dissecting Inequality in Media with Dr. Trier-Bieniek: Pop Culture's Unseen Biases 🚫

00:03.00
Bruce Anthony
Welcome ladies and gentlemen boys and girls and children of all ages I'm here with Adrian Trier Benick she's a college professor of sociology an academic who focuses on ways pop culture presents inequality based on race gender and sexuality. So you know that's what we're all about some. Really excited to have her on the show. She's also an author. She's written the beyonce effect and gender pop culture a text reader. She's also got a new book coming out about Britney Spears she's a podcaster check out her podcast wherever you get your audio podcasts called most popular. She's also appeared in several media outlets. Npr france to watch the post glamour Nbc News et cetera adrian welcome to the show. Well you know I like to make sure that I introduce everybody properly in.

00:48.69
Dr. Adrienne Trier-Bieniek
Um, thank you for having me what an introduction.

00:53.50
Dr. Adrienne Trier-Bieniek
Are you.

00:56.13
Bruce Anthony
Get the credentials out so people understand that we bring credible people on the show. No problem. No problem at all. So let's start from the beginning Can you share a little bit of your background and what drew you to sociology.

01:01.30
Dr. Adrienne Trier-Bieniek
Um, yeah, thank you, Thank you.

01:11.82
Dr. Adrienne Trier-Bieniek
Yeah, um, so I was born I live in Florida now but I was born and raised in a really really small town in Northern Michigan um on lake Michigan so my town has one stoplight just to give you a perspective of how little it is.

01:19.83
Bruce Anthony
With you.

01:25.41
Bruce Anthony
Okay.

01:27.34
Dr. Adrienne Trier-Bieniek
And people fight over whether or not that one stoplight should be there but that's another story. Um, so it was a very very limited space and both of my parents are social workers. So I think when I was born. They had an intention that I was going to see life outside of this little town. No matter what and you know social work doesn't pay great. But they took what they could and every summer we would travel um and we would drive because my mom doesn't fly so we would drive everywhere I mean we drove from Michigan to the California border we drove to Florida we drove my dad as a veteran so we went to Dc a lot and saw all the stuff there and they just made it a point that.

01:55.49
Bruce Anthony
Um, yeah.

02:04.30
Dr. Adrienne Trier-Bieniek
Anything that said historical monument historical site someone you know historical slept here we stopped and we looked at all of it and they made sure that I had that perspective that the world is much bigger than the little town I was living in I Also really really love to read.

02:12.67
Bruce Anthony
Um.

02:21.87
Dr. Adrienne Trier-Bieniek
And I grew I grew up in the 80 s so the scholastic book fair was like a massive deal for us. Yeah, and so I would get it down to the penny of how much money I had to spend at this thing. Um my parents money obviously but they would give me a budget.

02:25.70
Bruce Anthony
Yeah I remember that.

02:36.15
Bruce Anthony
Right.

02:39.23
Dr. Adrienne Trier-Bieniek
And you know I would buy everything I possibly could I would read everything I possibly could this drove my mother nuts I think in a good way because she would buy me something and in a day I would have it read so she made a deal with our Librarian Our little small Librarian um local library where she said.

02:47.70
Bruce Anthony
Um, yeah.

02:55.50
Dr. Adrienne Trier-Bieniek
Listen I know the limit is 12 books for two weeks can you let my kid have 14 for 12 for two weeks because this is financially this is not great. So that's where we started was just um.

03:02.68
Bruce Anthony
But.

03:09.38
Dr. Adrienne Trier-Bieniek
Parents that really wanted me to know that there's more to life than just what we're looking at here in this little town. Um I don't know why I I don't know why I specifically chose inequality as an area other than it's always just been something that I've been very aware of.

03:10.60
Bruce Anthony
Okay.

03:26.89
Bruce Anthony
Of you.

03:28.31
Dr. Adrienne Trier-Bieniek
Um, sociology came to me because I did a a bachelor's degree in um, a program called Liberal studies which people think think means I study liberal stuff which that's not true. It's a way to structure your own degree. So I wanted to do an interpersonal communications degree. My college didn't offer that but this program did.

03:45.30
Bruce Anthony
Okay.

03:47.12
Dr. Adrienne Trier-Bieniek
So I had this heavy philosophy based education and when I got out I thought I I don't know what to do so I worked at a women's center for 3 years and did their volunteer coordination and then I was also um, a trauma.

03:54.20
Bruce Anthony
A.

04:01.40
Dr. Adrienne Trier-Bieniek
I don't say counselor because I'm not a therapist but I was a trauma specialist maybe was the word where if someone was sexually assaulted. They would come to the women's center and they would kind of be funneled to me and then I would help them with resources and get them where they needed to be to be treated um and doing that for 3 years was a very clear path of I need to understand.

04:03.67
Bruce Anthony
Okay.

04:19.27
Dr. Adrienne Trier-Bieniek
What makes people unequal I wanted to do a women's studies program. But at the time they were very very few and far between to do any sort of gender studies graduate school program. So I found sociology and it had a gender component and I just sort of said Well I'll just make it work.

04:19.93
Bruce Anthony
Are a.

04:36.43
Dr. Adrienne Trier-Bieniek
And kind of the story of my education is um Square peg ground hole where I sort of fit but sort of don't so I went into a sociology degree and found a way to still kind of focus on the gender aspect that I wanted to focus on um but got this kind of.

04:42.76
Bruce Anthony
Hey.

04:54.27
Dr. Adrienne Trier-Bieniek
Bigger education in terms of like society structures social structures cultural structures. All of that stuff I have a couple of questions.

05:00.95
Bruce Anthony
Okay, so I have a couple of questions to piggyback off of that the the first one is so I understand being a woman ah a natural focus on inequality towards gender how did race and sexuality. Come into play with that and then also personally how did it affect you working at the women's shelter because I did a crisis line at the university of when I was going to the university of Maryland. Um. And I worked for the school newspaper and there were so many things that were happening to women on campus that I had no idea about that I found out about the crisis line and I couldn't do it. It was hurting my heart too much so how did you personally reconcile with the fact that you're helping women I mean you're helping them but ah the stories that they've gone through.

05:40.61
Dr. Adrienne Trier-Bieniek
Yeah.

05:51.70
Bruce Anthony
Are traumatic and heartbreaking.

05:54.28
Dr. Adrienne Trier-Bieniek
Um, um, yes I have learned that I am excellent in a crisis like I am very very I am a person that can stay calm I'll cry my eyes out later like after the fact I will have a good solid cry.

05:59.40
Bruce Anthony
Are.

06:05.11
Bruce Anthony
A.

06:09.16
Dr. Adrienne Trier-Bieniek
But in the moment I am I probably again because of my parents doing what they did My mom worked with um people in or she worked in a retirement facility and my dad worked with abused and neglected kids they're they're both still alive now but they're retired. Um, so I've always had this model for me of. When you know when when crisis is happening when trauma is happening. We're going to stay Calm. We're going to get through it. Um I've also educated myself a lot to know that this person is in this moment right now they're not going to stay there and it's they're going to move past it. Um.

06:42.58
Bruce Anthony
Um, a and 1

06:45.57
Dr. Adrienne Trier-Bieniek
And I think part of that also is is knowing as much as I knew about how trauma works How people um are going to be in the initial space versus how they are at the end knowing that there's a light at the end of the tunnel for Them. You know you kind of got into the. Got to a place where you could look at someone and go Okay, this person is going to be fine. They just need a little something right now? Um, but yeah I mean obviously yeah, it affects it affects you which is I think what motivated me to want to kind of it's It's one of the factors that motivated me to want to dedicate my life to understanding this more and eventually working with college students where I can share what I've.

07:04.11
Bruce Anthony
A.

07:19.48
Dr. Adrienne Trier-Bieniek
I've learned um the the question about race and um, sexual orientation and kind of how all of that works 1 of the things you learn when you start to study. Ah gender inequality is that it doesn't exist in a vacuum that all of that stuff is intertwined. You can't just look at one and not look at the rest of them. It's.

07:32.91
Bruce Anthony
Um, and they are.

07:37.82
Dr. Adrienne Trier-Bieniek
For the person who can they're a better scholar than I am I guess because they are all connected and if you don't grasp that and understand that and embrace all of it. You're not doing your job in terms of what it means to be a scholar in that field. Um, that said, ah.

07:56.10
Dr. Adrienne Trier-Bieniek
Besides the fact, um I was raised in I I was a teenager in the 90 s and so things like ah pop culture stuff really started to impact me like things like the real world coming out and um, if people aren't familiar. There was a man in the real world. San Francisco called ah called Pedro's amora

08:06.23
Bruce Anthony
Anything.

08:14.30
Dr. Adrienne Trier-Bieniek
And he was one of the first people on television to have Hiv and aides and he died basically while the season was being aired. Um and that was massive for me to be able to see that you know, um, when Matthew Shepard was killed in 98 he was a young gay man and in Laramie Wyoming um that was huge for me to see things like that playing out and you know we say representation manners and we say that you need to see things in order just to understand them. But those 2 examples were kind of our first real demonstration of the power that pop culture can have on somebodies. Um. Development and psyche because it clearly affected mine because I still think about it. You know thirty some years later um they're all intertwined. You can't have one without the other.

08:53.77
Bruce Anthony
Pay him.

09:00.81
Bruce Anthony
Yeah, the intersection between Race Gender and sexuality. You know I've interviewed a lot of different people and and it's funny. You know you say Inequality for gender women. But also if you're a black woman. There's also an added inequality of being black. Ah.

09:13.79
Dr. Adrienne Trier-Bieniek
Okay.

09:18.74
Bruce Anthony
If you're a latino woman or a latino man or a gay man or a gay black man or a gay black woman or there's intersections all over the place. It's interesting that we talk about pop culture and media portrayals and ah learning. About different things for those geninzeers out there I know you don't know too much about hiv and aids but us 80 s babies and 90 s teenagers it was a really really big deal and big thing when people got h I v they got age right away they died easy e.

09:45.90
Dr. Adrienne Trier-Bieniek
Um.

09:52.30
Dr. Adrienne Trier-Bieniek
With that.

09:54.80
Bruce Anthony
Ah, Pedro um, all these things happen and it enlightened us I also feel like and I'm sure we'll get into this later. How media portrayals um have negative impacts still to this day. So ah in the eighty s it was not uncommon for criminals. On television shows and that nature to be black I was watching the second ah season of Jack Reacher and I enjoyed the show yesterday and the the criminals it was a car jackcker he was black and I was like wait a minute they're in this little town in Arkansas if there was going to be ah, a car jacker in this little town in Arkansas they would probably be.

10:14.71
Dr. Adrienne Trier-Bieniek
Are you.

10:23.75
Dr. Adrienne Trier-Bieniek
Okay.

10:33.98
Bruce Anthony
Would would be white and it would probably be a Meth attic Why is this character black. Ah why is the evil villain somebody foreign these character portrayals are still being portrayed I'm sure we'll get into that pop culture. Ah because it's's kind of what you focus on but we want to talk about good stuff and especially. Your book. So you've written a book about beyonce as a motivational queen. How did that all come about.

11:02.31
Dr. Adrienne Trier-Bieniek
Um, okay I can't take 100% credit because I it's an edited collection. So there's lots of contributors to it. My husband gets annoyed when I say that because he's like yes, but you put it together and need to I understand that but it. Yeah yeah, but it was a community.

11:11.35
Bruce Anthony
Right? Don't discredit yourself that you're you're a big part of the book.

11:17.83
Dr. Adrienne Trier-Bieniek
It was a community effort and it's going to get and it's going to go into another edition. Um, that'll come out I think in about a year um I am an adult woman of a certain age and I love Beyonce and if you don't I don't quite know how to talk to folks who don't. At least appreciate what we have like what like this is the Aretha this is the you know what? I mean like this is the it's it. She's it. Um, so you know it started with that. Um, my first book. Was based off of my dissertation and I looked at women who are fans of to Amis and have used her music to heal after they've experienced some sort of trauma and as I was researching that. Um I started to realize that there's not just a hole in literature that looks at fans of women in music. It's not just.

11:59.48
Bruce Anthony
Are.

12:12.80
Dr. Adrienne Trier-Bieniek
A whole It's like a it's like a divot. It's like a like just like a bomb shelter size space where there is nothing There's just no nothing out there that really looks at women who are fans of other women performers or why people enjoy female performers. Um. And that blew my mind that no one had looked at Beyonce yet because I mean we're not just talking about beyonce as she is now. Beyonce's been around since what like 95 Ish I mean she 96.

12:39.51
Bruce Anthony
Ah, Ninety Ninety yeah ninety four ninety five the the original the original destiny child the first four members I think it was around that time. Yeah.

12:43.43
Dr. Adrienne Trier-Bieniek
Yeah, yeah, exactly yeah yeah, like we're talking we're talking 30 years of being you know I think she was 16 or something I mean it just in star search was was a thing when she was around so it it just absolutely blew my mind that no one has saw it.

12:55.50
Bruce Anthony
Um, yeah, that's your.

13:03.10
Dr. Adrienne Trier-Bieniek
We need to study what this person and and bring in perception ah bring in something that talks about the work. She's done. Um, and so when I I put that when I put the book together that was kind of the motivation behind it and then.

13:12.36
Bruce Anthony
Um.

13:18.92
Dr. Adrienne Trier-Bieniek
Just got really lucky. There was.. There's so many wonderful scholars who contributed to it and who know way more than I do my whole purpose whenever I put a book together is I know very very little and there are lots of people who know way more than I do and I want to talk to those people like I want that perspective on this situation. Um, because. You know to think that you know everything is insane. First of all but I wanted to bring in folks that had ideas about her work that maybe I didn't and who knew things that I didn't um and I also knew a few folks ah that had really impressive.

13:46.49
Bruce Anthony
Are.

13:56.59
Dr. Adrienne Trier-Bieniek
Takes on Beyonce's work and I thought they that should be out into the world and I don't say that in terms of like I was the person that that brought this you know book forward. Um I say that in the sense of it was insane to me that nobody else had done this and that nobody else had thought that this was something that needed to be out there.

14:15.90
Bruce Anthony
My sister often brings up 1 time. Um I was listing my favorite actors and I go you know Denzel I go you know Marlon Brando I go Alle Pacino and I list like 7 different people and she's like so no women. And this is part of my evolution this is when I was younger. This is part of my evolution but I still have this problem where the lady King came out a couple a couple years ago looks like a great movie. It looks like black wonder woman. Why have I not seen this movie yet. There's still work for me to be done so when you talk about that divot. Um.

14:39.19
Dr. Adrienne Trier-Bieniek
With it.

14:51.43
Bruce Anthony
Of Female representation and and spotlighting it I Have to admit that I'm one of these people who are criminal of this and I don't know what it is about me so in your research. Um, how is her influence. Um, so Important. To society.

15:12.49
Dr. Adrienne Trier-Bieniek
Um, oh God Um, no, it's a lot. Um.

15:13.73
Bruce Anthony
I Know that was a loaded question.

15:24.90
Dr. Adrienne Trier-Bieniek
It's not just that she we can see pop stars come and go who do a lot right? like who make an impact who put out great music stuff. You can you know listen to at the gym um stuff that that is just fun to listen to.

15:29.73
Bruce Anthony
A.

15:40.23
Dr. Adrienne Trier-Bieniek
But may not necessarily be saying something with it and that doesn't seem to be the case with her and I think that's why people connect to her I think it's why people connect to people like Taylor Swift um there is there has been an intention with with the music that she's put out even from the beginning I think it started.

15:41.92
Bruce Anthony
A.

15:59.79
Dr. Adrienne Trier-Bieniek
To be really heavy in the empowerment zone when she first when they first when destiny's trials first came out um and then when you start to realize like a song like survivor was a definite. Ah um, call out of the folks who said you're not going to make it now that you're down to a trio of 3

16:00.76
Bruce Anthony
And.

16:18.64
Dr. Adrienne Trier-Bieniek
This this thing that you've done where you've discounted these other 2 people is is when they broke off and had 3 destinies child instead of 5 um or four. Um, when you start to realize there is an intention to her songwriting I mean you look at an album like renaissance and lemonade and you can see. There is a point to what she's doing and it is resonating with people 1 of her most underrated songs in my mind if I may if I may is a song she did with drake called mine. Um, and it was on Beyonce somebody some people call it the visual album but it was on Beyonce just beyonce with the purple letters.

16:44.35
Bruce Anthony
Um, go go for it. Okay.

16:56.39
Dr. Adrienne Trier-Bieniek
Um, that song chronicles marriage like I don't think I've heard a person put on an album in a very very long time I mean that was oh she understands what it's like to be married to somebody for quite some time and what happens when that when you're with someone like that. Um, that's what's.

17:02.96
Bruce Anthony
Are.

17:14.80
Dr. Adrienne Trier-Bieniek
Where I think people get drawn to her I think that they see the intention and they see she's doing the research. She's doing the homework. Um, she knows what she's talking about when she puts out the ah visual stuff that it came with lemonade like that was a very intentional if you go down the rabbit hole of.

17:18.80
Bruce Anthony
Um.

17:33.79
Dr. Adrienne Trier-Bieniek
All of the easter eggs in that hour something long film. It's crazy how many things she thought through to put in there to represent different aspects of culture.

17:46.46
Bruce Anthony
Wow. Okay, um, fandom and and and people like Beyonce and Taylor Swift and things of that nature. Um, how do fan communities contribute or challenge societal norms when regarding race and gender and identity.

18:06.68
Dr. Adrienne Trier-Bieniek
So fandoms have always been on the outlier of um of a society fandoms have always been seen. Historically they were seen as like the odd ducks of our group like the trekies.

18:12.77
Bruce Anthony
Thing.

18:24.32
Dr. Adrienne Trier-Bieniek
And the people who just you know could not get enough um of their their nerd culture or whatever. Um, they've always kind of been the people on the periphery and for a long time. They were groups of people that you know you could kind of look down upon or.

18:29.81
Bruce Anthony
Be.

18:40.44
Dr. Adrienne Trier-Bieniek
Say like these are just insane people that have connected themselves to whatever. Um, but the reality of fandom has been that those people on the outside are looking at the world in a way that's different than what the rest of us can see and that part is dangerous to some folks. That when you have groups of people who can bring a new perspective to a society or to a culture that's scary for some people So when are you asking me in terms of like.

19:01.23
Bruce Anthony
Um, hanging.

19:17.36
Dr. Adrienne Trier-Bieniek
Gender specifically or like in fandom in general.

19:19.55
Bruce Anthony
Gender race and sexuality. So when we talk about Beyonce I'm a beyonce fan and anytime she comes out with an album I'm listening to it I liked their last album because it brought a lot of house music into it. So Beyonce fans cross all of these different.

19:32.23
Dr. Adrienne Trier-Bieniek
Um.

19:37.93
Bruce Anthony
Intersections with gender race and sexuality she brings people together unifying under one thing which I think is important to society when people that are different can find commonality I think that's how we bring close people closer together. So that's. By and large what I'm asking is like how does this fandom affect ah society how does being a fan of Beyonce help help or hinder society because there are situations where fandom can cause a division. Case in point some of our politicians. There are people who are actually fans of politicians at create division but speaking speaking specifically to just pop culture and those people participating in pop culture. How does this fandom bring people together and affect. You know the different intersections of gender of race. And sexuality.

20:33.16
Dr. Adrienne Trier-Bieniek
Okay, I am so glad you you brought this up. Um, so first of all the the notion of fandom is just to find a group of folks that are like minded and you can feel connected to and most people need that like that good bad indifferent. Most people want to know other people feel. The same way. They do about something or are as passionate about them as passionate as something about something as they are um and that explains how we end up with with both ends of the spectrum right? Um, when we're looking at people like beyonce. What I think is interesting about her last summer I don't know if you saw.

20:57.68
Bruce Anthony
And.

21:07.61
Dr. Adrienne Trier-Bieniek
Um, the the headlines that Beyonce Barbie and Taylor Swift basically drove the economy all summer with the tours beyonce was doing the tour Taylor Swift was doing and the film barbie that that was the driving force for our economic status for the entire summer was those 3 things.

21:20.83
Bruce Anthony
Yeah, you didn't didn't each enterprise bring about a billion dollar apiece yeah Yeah

21:25.50
Dr. Adrienne Trier-Bieniek
And it's yes, it's nuts. Um, and and the reason for that is um, on my podcast I had a ah woman on um, an episode that I'm working on who's an economist and we were talking about. Why were people so attached to that trio of Barbie Beyonce and Taylor Swift and 1 of the reasons we came up with and one of the reasons she thinks is because a year ago when we had um, Roe versus wade be overturned. There was this feeling amongst a lot of especially women. Um and people who felt the pressure of that of What are we going to do and where are we going to put this energy of I don't feel like um I'm being heard I don't I feel like my rights have been challenged and 1 of the places people tend to put that is in our pop culture. So.

22:12.12
Bruce Anthony
The head.

22:14.46
Dr. Adrienne Trier-Bieniek
We took a lot of people took that feeling of frustration and saw these artists in this film that kind of challenge what that stood for um, in some ways and and dug in deep and said I'm going to feel like. Ah, part of something again and I feel like these group these things are are helping me feel that way. What's interesting about Beyonce specifically is that fans tend to get real weird about women who are fans of other women. So as a culture we tend to.

22:45.62
Bruce Anthony
A.

22:48.69
Dr. Adrienne Trier-Bieniek
Be, totally fine with girls and women going to like a hairy styles show screaming their heads off singing along losing their mind. That's fine. A Taylor Swift show girls and women go sing along get teary eyed scream. Whatever they're hysterical or they are. Um, unable to control their emotions Beyonce seems to be great at balancing both ends of that spectrum where you can go to a beyonce show feel all the feelings and most people are going to be like yeah I get it. That's beyonce I get it. Um, it doesn't bring the dual nature that that you see you tend to see with groups of um fans based off of whatever sex. The performer is in front of them.

23:32.26
Bruce Anthony
So what is it about beyonce that makes not I'm trying to choose my words carefully not okay, but makes it so that it's okay for fans to react that way with Beyonce but not to Taylor Swift I'm I'm a little confused because they're both hugely popular that are driving economies wherever they go wherever they perform ah the fandom the swifties and what is Beyonce's group called the bayhive. You had a beehive I don't know how I forgot that.

24:05.47
Dr. Adrienne Trier-Bieniek
The Bay have the beehive.

24:11.73
Bruce Anthony
Um, you know they drive this the the fandom is is equal on both sides. So why is it? Ah why is it that women and men are looked at differently going to a beyonce concert than a Taylor Swift concert

24:22.77
Dr. Adrienne Trier-Bieniek
Um I think it's a good question I don't know I think it's worth looking into more. What do you think.

24:31.50
Bruce Anthony
Um, know, Ok um I I think Race has a little something to do with it and this is what I mean by that black people.

24:41.80
Dr. Adrienne Trier-Bieniek
Um.

24:46.67
Bruce Anthony
Tend to support one another just because there's a communal aspect especially black americans because we've been separated and segregated all of our lives I have a white friend that I was working out with a couple of years ago at a park and we were leaving the park and there was a black couple coming. To pass us and I gave him the head not It's a universal thing that most black people of a certain age I don't know about this younger generation. Do we acknowledge each other when we see each other because we're typically in spaces where majority of the time we're the minorities. Um, and he said what are you doing I said that. And I explained it to him. That's that's what we do. He's like I don't do that to people and I said I know because typically you're not the minority so we tend to support one another I also know and I don't know if this is true but generally speaking some of the worst people towards women. Are other women. So um, and just Beyonce just doesn't have to and Taylor doesn't have that but the the men the men I I would imagine seeing black men at a beyonce concert is par for the course but seeing.

25:44.17
Dr. Adrienne Trier-Bieniek
Ah, who.

26:01.77
Bruce Anthony
Black men at a Taylor Swift or white men at a beyonce concert wouldn't you wouldn't normally see that. Um so I'm going to say that yeah race probably has something to do with it that plus she's attached to JayZ right so

26:16.69
Dr. Adrienne Trier-Bieniek
Um.

26:17.49
Bruce Anthony
Men are like yeah I have to take my significant other go see the beyonce concert but I know she'll do some songs with Jay-z and then they realize well oh I actually like Beyonce songs that don't have anything to do with Jc whereas I don't know if Taylor has collaborations like that I don't know that was a longwin it. Answer to your question. But I think you know just off the top of my head that that has something to do with it.

26:42.69
Dr. Adrienne Trier-Bieniek
Well what you're demonstrating is that these things have layers right? like you can't explain the situation of why someone goes to 1 show versus another why someone fits in 1 fandom versus another they they have layers to them. Um, and I think you're right and I I think that.

26:44.59
Bruce Anthony
A.

26:58.63
Dr. Adrienne Trier-Bieniek
1 of the appeals of her I mean there's like a thousand appeals to her. But um, one of the appeals to her is that it's it's a safe space and it's a place where you can go and express whatever you got to express.

27:11.93
Bruce Anthony
Um.

27:17.30
Dr. Adrienne Trier-Bieniek
In the I forget how long her show is like 3 hours or whatever. But you're going to feel safe there and um I think for the the same thing applies to a Taylor Swift show it's a safe space where you can go and be the odd duck that you are and it's fine. Um, and.

27:23.47
Bruce Anthony
Um.

27:36.10
Dr. Adrienne Trier-Bieniek
That for a lot of people is the solace of of a fandom and it's not necessarily just about seeing the performance on stage I mean um I know for these shows the show starts at what like 7 or something and people will show up the second that that stadium opens just because they want to have community before it starts. And just because they want to hang out with each other and you know meet strangers and and do all of that stuff just to have a place to gather and congregate that's part of the appeal of performers of Beyonce's caliber she allows people to have that space.

28:08.80
Bruce Anthony
Ready.

28:17.20
Bruce Anthony
So we've talked about the beehive. We talked about this swifties but now I want to talk about you. Um, with your appearances and your different media outlets where there be glamour magazine the Washington Post Nbc News and you're discussing um pop culture. and gender sexuality and race um can you share is there has there been anything. That's that's been impactful or surprising moment in any of these interviews of research that you've done that have shaped your perspective. An intersection of media and culture.

28:54.43
Dr. Adrienne Trier-Bieniek
So there's a person that I met through um Nbc News who interviewed me quite a few times and her name is Elizabeth Chuck and she's a reporter for Nbc News um and the first time she contacted me I I don't remember what the story was. Um, but we kind of sort of talked a little bit and and became I don't want to say friends but you know light acquaintances and I learned a lot about um the process journalists go through before they put anything out into the world just from talking to her and um.

29:15.63
Bruce Anthony
A.

29:29.92
Dr. Adrienne Trier-Bieniek
Hearing her have conversations about how open she has to be to when she's made mistakes and how she has to course correct if she reports something that isn't um, not necessarily untruthful, but maybe the fact was not as good as as she thought it could be.

29:47.20
Bruce Anthony
A.

29:49.18
Dr. Adrienne Trier-Bieniek
Um, that has been a really great learning experience for me just in terms of interviews um doing interviews and learning about different things I did want to share I had a um, kind of like a I've had 2 moments that were just lightning bolts of Don't forget, you're you're still talking to the media about the media like that. This is a this is a meta situation one was a person content this was years ago this was when Beyonce first came out um and wanted to talk to me about the the book and I should have could have would have I should have.

30:13.50
Bruce Anthony
Um, and he right.

30:26.95
Dr. Adrienne Trier-Bieniek
Looked at who they were a little more closely and they said they were writing for a news web website in France this isn't npr France um, at all. Um this is I'm not even going to say which one it was um but they were writing for a news outlight let in France and they wanted to write about beyonce in the book. And so I said sure of course and and I did the interview and everything was fine. Nothing seemed odd and then I never heard from them I never heard from them I never heard from them and I kind of forgot and then I don't know a couple months later I thought I wonder if anything ever came of that because it is fairly common sometimes where folks will interview you. And then either they'll get scooped or somebody else will have already written about it or they had something else happen. Um, and so I googled it and I didn't realize it was a person's kind of personal blog that was written and it was written all in french and when Google translate translated it. It was very negative toward.

31:14.34
Bruce Anthony
Hey.

31:23.10
Dr. Adrienne Trier-Bieniek
Um, the the yeah toward beyonce toward her as a performer not necessarily anything about my book which was kind of annoying like you just took quotes from me but didn't mention the work I've done and and it was It was a solid reminder that you're still a person talking about the media to the media and as.

31:23.15
Bruce Anthony
Ah.

31:42.36
Dr. Adrienne Trier-Bieniek
Most 99% of the time. It's great experiences but you still got to do your homework and you still got to know who you're talking to and what they may be coming in with what kind of agenda they may be coming in with um which is a meta moment right? to think about it like that.

31:54.80
Bruce Anthony
Yeah, yeah, so with your podcast most popular I'm going to transition a little bit because you bring up something that's interesting I know that I will have guest requests to come on the show and I have to do a deep dive.

32:12.60
Dr. Adrienne Trier-Bieniek
5

32:14.30
Bruce Anthony
I Have to find out but I I also went to school in my first major was Journalism So There's still some principles that I I hold on to but every now and then I've interviewed some people and even though I've done a deep dive I was like oh I didn't know that this was your agenda when you came on the show. Ah, so has that happened on your own podcast. Ah most popular by the way check that out wherever you get your audio podcast.

32:42.16
Dr. Adrienne Trier-Bieniek
Um I have been very lucky to not have that specific thing happen but I will say this I have had folks who um I have loved what they've written I have loved what they've put out into the world I could not wait to talk to them.

32:44.49
Bruce Anthony
Here.

32:55.90
Bruce Anthony
Um, a.

32:58.48
Dr. Adrienne Trier-Bieniek
And then I get them and their emails are great and everything's great and I know you know where I'm going with this and then they get on and you're just like could you give me more than 2 sentences of an answer to something like you have written a four hundred I read your 400 page book on this topic i'm.

33:06.48
Bruce Anthony
Yes, yes, yes.

33:16.98
Dr. Adrienne Trier-Bieniek
So Then you know you try and do things like I I always make sure I have pull quotes from the book that I can say Okay, you wrote this? What did you mean? can you expand like that kind of stuff. Um, but that that's what's happened to me more consistently is um, you know academics were great but we're not all used to a medium where we have to talk about Ourselves. I Am you know, not great at it either and I do it more regularly than most folks. So I get the reticence but at the same time I've had that happen a lot where you're You're just like you're so loquacious in other areas and the now now you decide I don't want to say anything.

33:51.70
Bruce Anthony
Yeah, it happens that happens a lot and there's just dead space and you're feeling it and you're like I need you to say something right now. So pop culture and podcasts podcasts are kind of like pop culture now.

33:53.69
Dr. Adrienne Trier-Bieniek
This moment with a microphone in front of you.

34:09.73
Dr. Adrienne Trier-Bieniek
People.

34:11.58
Bruce Anthony
Like we're both in this space. How does gender sexuality and ah race and podcasting have you done any research or thought any about anybody anybody can get some software. Turn turn on the camera microphone to start talking what a lot of people don't realize is that especially if you're doing a show by yourself and it's 50 minutes an hour that to talk about something for 50 minutes in an hour to keep it engaging is a lot more difficult than than people realize it's not as easy as turning on the mic and going but a lot of people have voices. Some good some bad but people have voices. How do you think? Pop culture has affected podcasting.

34:52.86
Dr. Adrienne Trier-Bieniek
Um.

35:00.68
Dr. Adrienne Trier-Bieniek
Well Mr Bruce there are several answers to this um number one luckily enough I just this sounds so this is where I say we're I'm not I'm not great at at at bragging about myself I just guest edited.

35:02.61
Bruce Anthony
Name.

35:16.36
Dr. Adrienne Trier-Bieniek
A series of essays for a journal called radio journal on this very topic of how we incorporate social inequality into podcasting and there's 2 layers to it right? So the first one is that um podcasts are an amazing opportunity for people who don't normally have a voice to have a voice.

35:32.83
Bruce Anthony
A.

35:34.56
Dr. Adrienne Trier-Bieniek
And like you said it's so easy I mean I've got ah a blue yeti mic that I paid a couple hundred dollars for you. Don't even need this. You just need some. You don't even need the earbud situation like my computer will record with nothing you know so exactly you can.

35:44.19
Bruce Anthony
Know your phone smartphones will do it now. Yeah.

35:53.64
Dr. Adrienne Trier-Bieniek
You can use anything to record your voice and put it out into the world and that is amazing that anyone with ah you know, basic level of how to create a little tiny logo for yourself and a smartphone there you go recording done. Um, that's fantastic. Anybody can put that out.

36:13.46
Dr. Adrienne Trier-Bieniek
The other layer of it is that when you start to break down I don't know if you want to call it like the top 10 on Itunes or you know the the the podcasts that are the most popular which is the name my podcast. Um there is a definite. Ah. There is a definite theme happening of usually white men in the top groups usually ah groups of people talking about stuff that are already pretty famous I think like smartless is a good example of that or um Dex Shepherd's podcast. Um, those are the ones that tend to bubble up to the tippy top and people know the most about so you have 2 layers to this. You have this amazing opportunity for people to put their voice out there and get heard and then you also have the corporate structure that has sort of taken over.

37:03.53
Bruce Anthony
And.

37:04.69
Dr. Adrienne Trier-Bieniek
Um, podcasting and has made it much more challenging for folks to pop to tonight. Dont want say possibly to pop through that that that bubble and get their stuff out where people can hear it. Um and you have to go looking for it right? like you have to kind of know what you're looking for. Um I think in the last.

37:13.49
Bruce Anthony
Um, yeah.

37:24.20
Dr. Adrienne Trier-Bieniek
There's a scholar who I really really love um whose name is Bruce Drewsel and he's at ah gosh I forget where I'll I'll email it to you later? Um, but his name is Bruce Drewsel and he ah has been looking at audio content for. His entire career and he can talk about it in terms of the days of the 1950 s radio all the way till right now with podcasting and one of the things he talks about is that um and he does it through the lens of of queer ah life experience. So one of the things he'll talk about is that. There's this amazing opportunity, especially for queer voices to be heard on podcasts and there's also this this pushback of how are we going to get these voices out when in the last probably five years podcasting has become a massive money making opportunity for folks and the pandemic even made it even worse because.

38:13.74
Bruce Anthony
Um, go ahead.

38:16.35
Dr. Adrienne Trier-Bieniek
People were home and they needed something to do and podcasts just blew up in the last four years

38:21.13
Bruce Anthony
So I I don't think there's going to be a bubble on podcasts because if you look at the numbers most podcasts don't make it pass I think they said 10 episodes because to be consistent right to keep coming up with content. Some people say you have to find it a niche.

38:34.16
Dr. Adrienne Trier-Bieniek
Um, yeah, who.

38:41.90
Bruce Anthony
Aheesh and we we hear unsolicited perspectives kind of have that but we kind of go all over the place I do things that drive interest and we're rapidly coming up on our 1 one Hundredth episode and by this time next year we'll have 200 episodes can't stop. Won't stop even though I keep quoting puffy I can't do that anymore.

38:54.97
Dr. Adrienne Trier-Bieniek
And I have.

39:00.92
Bruce Anthony
But what what made you decide I wanted to start a podcast I wouldn't do my own podcast.

39:09.72
Dr. Adrienne Trier-Bieniek
Okay, there is a professional answer and a personal answer. So I'm going to give you the professional one first like the fancy answer. This is my fancy answer. My fancy answer is I um am a professor at an institution that is um, a state college and it is extremely diverse in terms of my student population.

39:13.20
Bruce Anthony
Okay.

39:27.72
Dr. Adrienne Trier-Bieniek
So I am very aware that I am a white middle aged lady and that my experiences are I mean there's always overlap but my students experiences are very different than mine so I wanted to figure out a way that I could bring them bring to them. Um, folks who have research lived experience or who are an expert in some field that is relatable to them so I started most popular with the idea that I would just talk to 5 or 6 scholars that I knew who studied stuff that was interesting and that would grab my students' attention like.

39:54.10
Bruce Anthony
A.

40:06.63
Dr. Adrienne Trier-Bieniek
My friend um Dr. Ah Kwame Harrison Anthony Kwame Harrison is at Virginia tech and he looks at the anthropology of hip hop so he will look at like mixedtapes from the 80 s and how that is an archeological artifact that we need to you know, have some sort of comprehension on but he also is an artist and he raps.

40:16.57
Bruce Anthony
Um, and if.

40:26.56
Dr. Adrienne Trier-Bieniek
So I thought okay, it would be cool I use him as an example but I thought it would be cool to bring him on have him do some freestyle have him talk about how 1 becomes an anthropologist who looks at Mixtapes. Um in the history of hip hop and ah and just sort of take it from there. That was the that's the professional answer. The personal answer is I am a really curious person and I love talking to other like this right now is killing me that I can't ask you 20 questions about your life like I have like i.

40:52.76
Bruce Anthony
Um, here here.

40:58.77
Bruce Anthony
I get it I get it.

41:04.72
Dr. Adrienne Trier-Bieniek
I Have so many questions about people's lives all the time and as a naturally introverted person Sometimes that's shocking to folks but I really like learning about other people's lives and experiences that is important to me and if I can if I can share that side of myself.

41:08.32
Bruce Anthony
Um.

41:23.35
Dr. Adrienne Trier-Bieniek
With my students and say you know I'm on this journey with you too like yes I'm picking the folks that we that are on the podcast. But um I really am genuinely curious about these people that we're talking to and I've also let them drive the bus a little bit every semester I Ask them. Like who what?? what would you? what topics would you like to cover what kinds of things. Do you wish you would know more about and then I try and find people that that can talk about those things but I am genuinely just a person who likes to hear other people's stories and how they got to the point they're at in their life.

41:58.80
Bruce Anthony
What That's yeah, that's nirvana I Think a lot of people don't get that about podcasting. You know when people when people have podcasts that fail or listeners out there.

41:59.53
Dr. Adrienne Trier-Bieniek
And if I can tie in pop culture with that I'm I'm done like that. That's that's the best The best for me.

42:16.44
Bruce Anthony
When you're a host or you have your own podcast and you're interviewing people you're doing it because you genuinely have an interest in people. Ah the way they think the way they were raised you learn something from everybody Because. By talking to people you get new insight into society and life. So yes, that's so very very important and also that's really dope that as an educator. Um, you're expressing to your students. Yes I'm teaching but I'm also learning as well.

42:34.33
Dr. Adrienne Trier-Bieniek
Well.

42:49.46
Bruce Anthony
That I wish I had professors that express that because I would I would be more invested in or this is a we're all in this together here is somebody obviously who's more knowledgeable but ah and it's teaching me something but to also say hey look I don't know everything I'm still learning. As Well. Let's take this journey together I think a lot of people in ah the teaching industry because I did go to school to be a teacher don't realize that that teaching is also continuously learning and bringing that in helps. Enrich the experience when you're working with students so that's really really dope that you do that and it's really really dope that you like talking to people I think that's important. But then again that also explains how you're a professor of sociology.

43:35.90
Dr. Adrienne Trier-Bieniek
Thank you? Yeah can I can I say something just along with what you just you just articulated. Um I appreciate that a lot because um I think that one of the places you can get stuck.

43:41.74
Bruce Anthony
Of course.

43:53.13
Dr. Adrienne Trier-Bieniek
In higher Ed is assuming that you have now been anointed expert right? like you get this title of expert and you're done and you don't have to do anything else because now you're an expert and the thing that I think most people who are truly experts in their field know is that you don't know anything like you.

43:57.14
Bruce Anthony
The.

44:03.64
Bruce Anthony
We.

44:11.76
Dr. Adrienne Trier-Bieniek
You have this tiny tiny gap of knowledge or this tiny tiny place where you have a ton of knowledge but there are people who know more than you or who have a different perspective than you or who can bring something the tape to the table. You can't and if you cut yourself off from that. It's it's It's not benefiting. Anybody. Um, and in terms of students I mean if if you came to a class to one of my classes. Um, first of all the the personality is the same. But um, it's about having conversation and and learning from each other as opposed to me standing up. You know, proclaiming all of my. Brilliantness to a classroom. It's more about we're all here to learn. Let's see what we all can bring to the table.

44:55.30
Bruce Anthony
And that's the way it should be so as a professor as an author as a podcaster and in in that same vein of what we were talking about what have you faced? What challenges have you faced communicating these sociological concepts. Ah, to the broader audience so taking out your students because obviously we can't talk about the students right now. But when you're doing your podcast when you're writing and you're getting feedback. What are some of the challenges that you get when you're just saying hey why don't you look at this. Because as you said there are people that have that hubris where I've got everything I know everything that I need to know I don't need to know anything else I don't want to hear what you have to say so what challenges have you face just getting your thoughts your facts your information out there.

45:39.16
Dr. Adrienne Trier-Bieniek
Is.

45:50.70
Dr. Adrienne Trier-Bieniek
I'm not going to be super specific. Um I want to keep it a little more general but I have I have I have had the experience of um, trying to publish something have it reviewed by some people who clearly.

45:53.22
Bruce Anthony
Yeah, don't throw anybody under the west if.

46:07.97
Dr. Adrienne Trier-Bieniek
Had no idea what I was trying to do and um, either have it rejected or have been asked to make changes to things that would totally change the structure of what I was looking at um, one that I can say that's kind of vague. It's not super specific because I don't think anybody would ever be listening who knew what this was but. Um, years ago. 1 of the very first things I had published was a study believe it or not um, ten years ago. Very few research journals that looked at research methods. Um, understood how to do interviews for participants in a study over the phone like that was considered. Just mind blowing that you would call someone and do an interview as opposed to sit down face to face I know I see the look on your face. It was it just wasn't being done. There wasn't anything published on it. So I was like well that's an easy one I did interviews over the phone I can publish this so I I submitted what I did and.

46:58.51
Bruce Anthony
Um, right.

47:03.93
Dr. Adrienne Trier-Bieniek
Um, the journal was great that I was working with but there was 1 reviewer who very clearly thought that since I had studied people remember my dissertation was on women who had experienced trauma.

47:14.90
Bruce Anthony
A.

47:16.00
Dr. Adrienne Trier-Bieniek
Since I had studied trauma that I should just never publish anything on it because I'm not a um psychologist psychiatrist or a trauma specialist and that anything I did that had anything to do with trauma should be moot and that the journal should reject it immediately and they didn't obviously um, but that. You know that's the kind of thing that you get where there are people that are very stuck in their own lane of how things should be and they're not quite grasping that the whole point of this World. We exist in is to talk about how things can be if if I could give the.

47:50.72
Bruce Anthony
So how do you deal with that personally.

47:54.70
Dr. Adrienne Trier-Bieniek
Dichotomy for it.

48:03.64
Dr. Adrienne Trier-Bieniek
You email friends that you know are like binded and you scream a lot you start there and you text um and you just you know you get it all out in a safe place and then you compose your very professional worded message that you think.

48:08.81
Bruce Anthony
Um, better.

48:19.56
Dr. Adrienne Trier-Bieniek
We'll solve the problem and you send it to a few folks that can re proof read it for you I mean honestly, this is it's the extra step that you anybody that that studies inequality. Um I mean honestly, anyone who has ever felt like they were an other in a society. Will know that you usually have to take 12 steps to get to the place that most people only have to take 1 step to get to so you do that stuff and you find a way around it and if it's really not working then you just say okay and you you move on to something else. Um.

48:41.35
Bruce Anthony
A.

48:53.40
Dr. Adrienne Trier-Bieniek
But you know it's It's the find a way around the situation First see if there's a back door see if there's you know it's another way to to deal with it. That's not great advice. But.

49:05.16
Bruce Anthony
Um, well everybody deals with different things differently. Um, you know when people say that I can't do something or I I can't say something or I can't do anything I'm always my mentality has been since I was a kid. Okay.

49:21.18
Dr. Adrienne Trier-Bieniek
Well.

49:22.16
Bruce Anthony
Gonna do it anyway and show you um, but that's not always the right way to to put your head down to forge ahead like a bull so sometimes things deserve power sometimes things deserve finesse. Each situation is different um looking ahead.

49:34.25
Dr. Adrienne Trier-Bieniek
Yeah, yeah.

49:39.47
Bruce Anthony
Where do you see the future of media representation heading in terms of addressing and challenging inequalities and what do you think the role of academics play in that especially now that we're seeing academics such as yourself being content creators.

49:55.18
Dr. Adrienne Trier-Bieniek
I think that social media and podcasting are giving really great opportunities for experiences and stories and information to get out there that. May not necessarily have had that platform before here's an example, um, my students this semester ah were exposed for the first time a lot of them to um, the the um missing and murdered indigenous women that is happening around the United States and so when I brought this up for the first time. Um, somebody raised her hand and said oh that is what I forget the account but that is what so and so on Tiktok talks a lot about and then about 4 other people went. Oh I follow that guy that's what he's talking about and and it just sort of snowballed from there where me showing a story from Nbc News about something wasn't clicking but Tiktok was the thing that made them go oh I've watched a content creator talk about this exact thing I just didn't realize that's what was going on and then that led to what I normally do with them is I have them. You know give a list of folks that they follow that that do these types of things. Um, I think if you're ignoring social media and podcasting and all of this content creation stuff. Um, you're not grasping the potential that it has to get information in people's lives and experiences out into the world because there's so many folks that are doing.

51:23.20
Dr. Adrienne Trier-Bieniek
Just an amazing job with making content that um I don't know that they're setting out to change your mind or change your experience but you know if if you for example, have an issue with someone because they are lgbtq. Um, there's so many content creators out there who are just placing that stuff out there of. This is me living my life with my partner or my wife or my husband or whatever and people tend to follow them. Not really understanding. Um that they're also participating in a bit of a movement now. So there's one woman that I love a lot. Um, her name is Miss Chang on Instagram and she's a teacher I think she said fourth grade maybe second grade.

51:54.95
Bruce Anthony
Um, yeah I think.

52:00.67
Bruce Anthony
Um, and.

52:01.90
Dr. Adrienne Trier-Bieniek
Um, and she and her wife are a um, biracial couple with two kids and they're just living their life and it is joy to watch them I mean they are just a joyful family that type of stuff is where I think the future of this should be heading. We should be thinking about how media in terms of content is. Um, getting across the stuff that we were hoping you know twenty years ago that probably even more than that thirty years ago that the internet would do. Um I really emphasize with my students think about who you follow when you look at social media. Especially.

52:38.23
Bruce Anthony
A.

52:39.61
Dr. Adrienne Trier-Bieniek
Um, go through your list and if it's not something that makes you feel better about yourself or makes you feel good and if it's not somebody that you're learning from or has a different perspective than you then maybe think about who you I mean we all have our guilty pleasure followers like there's no doubt there. But if you're the overwhelming thing you see are people doing you know? um. Body influencing where they're trying to tell you if you eat um carrot stew for the next month you will lose £60 and look like me like if that's the majority of the stuff you're seeing That's what's affecting you so that stuff.

53:08.73
Bruce Anthony
Like right.

53:13.71
Dr. Adrienne Trier-Bieniek
Those things are important that representation really does matter and ignoring that this is where people are getting the majority of their information from is not going to help us as we move forward.

53:22.82
Bruce Anthony
So I want to get your opinion on this. This is something that I've been thinking about a lot because when I talk to different people. This is things that I get from other people specifically when it comes to social media not podcasting but social media these sound bites minute 2 minute 3 minutes where if you're paying attention. You can learn something but what they are is a spark of curiosity about something and I feel like a lot of people will will get that spark but they won't research.

53:45.68
Dr. Adrienne Trier-Bieniek
4

54:00.23
Bruce Anthony
And they won't expand upon and get to learn more about it and there's so many times that friends of mine will will send me a Tiktok or send me an Instagram knowing that I'm a history major I'm a historian. Right? And they will send me something saying. Did you hear about this this is crazy and I'm like this isn't the whole story. This is part of the story here's more information you need to do research this soundbite can't give you all of your information I think social media is fantastic because I've learned things about american history. That I didn't know about but it's a spark. It gives me a little bit and I'm like oh let me Google search this and then I go into a deep dive is that part of the journalism a historian that I do research. Okay, maybe and not everybody does that. But I think an emphasis needs to be put on these content creators to say.

54:35.47
Dr. Adrienne Trier-Bieniek
Evena.

54:48.85
Bruce Anthony
Hey look don't just take my word for it. Go do the research here and here and here. Um and that's I see great benefits from social media I also see detrimental situations happening from social media. So just what do you think is the responsibility for content creators specifically on social media.

54:51.37
Dr. Adrienne Trier-Bieniek
Yep nap.

54:57.80
Dr. Adrienne Trier-Bieniek
Yes.

55:08.37
Bruce Anthony
Um, when they're giving when I learned about maluans right? I ah think it's dura and not a derogatory term people have told me it is isn't but it's a group of ah basically interraced people. Ah former slaves and white people because interracial marriages weren't really. Ah, allowed that went up to the mountain went out to the mountains and created this whole community and a lot of people that you see in appalachia mountains all the way going into West Virginia are descendants of these people had no idea so I did a research and and that was a poor description of it. Ah, but. Ah, did a research and I was like I never knew about this so. What? What do you think is the content creator's responsibility when they're creating content.

55:53.86
Dr. Adrienne Trier-Bieniek
I I love this question so much you are speaking my language on so many different levels. Um media literacy is is what we're talking about. So we're talking about understanding that this media is part of our lives. It's not going anywhere. Right? Like there's no way we're going to go without the internet. At this point. It's not going to happen. What are we doing to teach people what is real and what isn't right? Um I think content creators. Um, there was something great that happened when that Hashtag ad or Hashtag advertisement came out where you know you had to say that this was an ad for something.

56:11.90
Bruce Anthony
Yeah.

56:28.15
Dr. Adrienne Trier-Bieniek
I think that if you're placing something on the internet that is in your mind a fact or something that happened or whatever adding a link putting on there if you want to know more here's where you go um, putting something in your in your description or in your um bio link. All of that stuff can take somebody to the next step like you know you can't force them to click on it and and learn more but citing your sources in a way that makes sense for whatever platform you're on is really beneficial rarely do I post a news story that I don't post the link to so that you know folks can. Have that information or um, a fact or whatever. There's a woman that I love on Instagram um, Jessica Yellens she used to be a white house reporter and she used to be a reporter at Cnn she created her own news service through Instagram called news not noise and. She will make with every slide she will make a link to whatever story. She's sourcing this from or whatever information. She's getting this from whatever you know, statistic or or all of it. But every single thing has that link connected to it and that is you know that is the the difference between um. Ah, fact that you just have decided as a fact and so now it's a fact and a fact that's actually a fact because look here's the source to back it up with a legitimate web site or poll or whatever it is. You're looking at.

57:49.31
Bruce Anthony
That was what I was just getting ready to say so many times people are sending me and did you read this article and I look at the website and I'm like wait a minute did you do any research on this website without me I Just read the article or they don't even read the article.

57:58.44
Dr. Adrienne Trier-Bieniek
I have.

58:04.20
Bruce Anthony
Just read the headline we're we're going off on a tangent here. But I find this interesting like I think a lot of people are just yeah.

58:09.40
Dr. Adrienne Trier-Bieniek
Um, no, it's the I think yeah media Literacy is.

58:14.57
Bruce Anthony
No words needed to be said right? there we both looked at each other and was like yeah no I know exactly what you're feeling right now I know exactly what you're thinking.

58:19.36
Dr. Adrienne Trier-Bieniek
Yeah, Media Literacy is the is the thing like it's It's the it's the new learning how to type you know it's It's something that needs to be baked in.

58:27.39
Bruce Anthony
And I don't think it's generational I Don't think that it's just one group I don't think it's just Gen Z or millennials or boomers even though I will say Boomers Good God like everything that you see on social media is not the truth. My mom isn't a boomer.

58:39.43
Dr. Adrienne Trier-Bieniek
Um.

58:46.40
Bruce Anthony
And I'm not throwing out of the bus but there's a lot of times she sends me stuff and I'm like mom come on like you're you're really smart. Let's just ah, let's just do a little bit more research here. Ah Adrian was there was there a final nugget or point that you when to give to my audience um about the work that you do.

58:55.72
Dr. Adrienne Trier-Bieniek
Um.

59:04.96
Bruce Anthony
And the importance of pop culture and inequality. Ah with regards to gender Race and sexuality.

59:13.42
Dr. Adrienne Trier-Bieniek
Oh god um, just that I I think that maybe there's this misnomer that you can avoid pop culture and that it it doesn't affect you that you can just toss it aside and have no. Connection to it and here's the example I like to give when I teach I have never seen an episode of any Kardashian show ever. That's ever been on air except for a 5 minute clip where chloe had to take a drug test and in the drug test room. They allowed her to wear like. Her sweatshirt carry her purse. Do all that stuff and I was like oh that's fake. There's no anybody who's ever had to take a drug test in real life knows that they basically have you stripped down to nothing to walk into that room right? um employer or whatever I I did it once to volunteer with kids and it was literally like.

59:56.64
Bruce Anthony
And.

01:00:04.74
Dr. Adrienne Trier-Bieniek
You you cannot go into this room with anything other on your broth like that's what it was I can name all of them I know I've other than that 5 minute clip um I sometimes blank out on on I don't know that there's all the grandkids names or children's names I can name all of them never seen that show.

01:00:06.41
Bruce Anthony
So why.

01:00:23.10
Dr. Adrienne Trier-Bieniek
It makes its way into your life and it's not bad like it's not bad to have strong opinions about beyonce. It's It's part of existing in this society many many years ago when World War Ii was happening one of the things women would do was draw lines up at the back of their legs because they couldn't afford.

01:00:24.90
Bruce Anthony
It does. Yeah.

01:00:41.42
Bruce Anthony
Are.

01:00:41.64
Dr. Adrienne Trier-Bieniek
Panny hose right? but they still wanted the effect of looking like they had pantyhose line so they would take a marker or an eyeliner and just draw that lineup. Um, because that was part of the fashion of the time but it's also a statement on where we were at as a country at that moment right? like pantyhose were not available. Why will they were using it for supplies for the war.

01:00:59.72
Dr. Adrienne Trier-Bieniek
These things all have bigger impacts than we think they do and um, ignoring that just basically means you're saying well I'm the exception to the rule society doesn't impact me culture doesn't impact me and you don't have to care about all of it. But you do have to understand that it it. Does shape our lives and our experiences and that that is um, that's fine. It's actually great to participate in understanding how somebody like Beyonce makes people so happy that they will flock to shows to see her perform.

01:01:32.93
Bruce Anthony
Well said Adrian I want to thank you for coming on the show. This has been an enlightening conversation that I know my listeners are going to like listening and watching and learn the most important thing is. Always want um on my audience to learn something from each and every episode. So once again, thank you so much for coming on the show. It was fine.

01:01:54.21
Dr. Adrienne Trier-Bieniek
Um, thank you. This is fun.